When estranged parents encounter estranged children’s forums
When members of estranged parents’ forums come across abuse survivors’ forums, something chilling happens.
Purely for curiosity’s sake, I hopped over to the “parent-bashing” (and everything else!) site [….] In 60 years, I have NEVER witnessed such PURE VITRIOL streaming out of people’s “mouths”… On the thread where they go to bash (that’s too tame a word!) MOSTLY moms, it is just, well… evil.
There is never a grounded reason for the hate; they just couldn’t “deal” (that word again!!!) with, get this:
1. Mom is getting older and NEEDS HELP (God forbid!!!)
2. She won’t give me $ before she dies..
3. SHE KEEPS ASKING ME HOW I AM WHEN WE TALK!!!!! ( Shame on Mom for loving you…)
4. She wants to meet my boyfriend. (Tragic)
5. She wanted to know when my plane landed. (THE AUDACITY!!!)These are just the ones I could stomach before I had to sign off. The name-calling – EVERY SLUR imaginable! – the whining that only a dog could hear; it was overwhelming and sickening… I honest to God found myself praying that something AWFUL happens to each of these little pukes.
I dropped by the same forum and took a look at the posts the member would have seen. Some of the stories that would have been on the first couple of pages when she visited:
- A mother whose fury was so terrifying that her 10-year-old didn’t tell her about the sexual assaults the child suffered at an after-school program because the child was more afraid of the mother’s rage at being put on the spot. The same mother deprived the child of food until the child developed food issues, then forced the child to eat sugary food until the child vomited and passed out from glycemic shock.
- A mother who killed her husband’s cat because the cat occasionally peed outside the litter box.
- Parents who slapped their child if he answered a question wrong, then kept slapping him until he answered right, and slapped him more if he cried.
Stories of child rape and beatings are common on that particular forum. It’s the kind of place where “You were a mistake, I never should have had you,” sabotage, chronic lying, and theft of the adult child’s belongings are standard parental behaviors, and it’s not uncommon for people to talk about how many of their siblings who remained at home have killed themselves or tried to kill themselves. I limit my own reading there because I can’t handle it. And yet several times a year, members of estranged parents’ forums rediscover this particular adult children’s support forum and declare that everyone there is a bunch of spoiled brats whining because their parents didn’t buy them something.
These are people who have equally horrific stories about their own childhoods. They know abuse from the inside. When their fellow members recount their own stories, they support them with all the caring of fellow survivors.
But the moment someone is tagged as an estranged child rather than an estranged parent, a switch flips and the person is wrong, evil, spoiled, sickening. The member stops being able to see the abuse as abuse. Tucked away in their minds, subconscious and therefore unchallengeable, is the assumption that there are different rules for me and for thee, and that reality conforms to these rules.
It’s not just that estranged children are expected to accept different treatment from their parents than the estranged parents accepted from their own parents. If that were true, estranged parents would stop after telling estranged adult children that they misunderstood standard parenting of the day, or their parents meant well, or whatever other minimizing cliche they can dredge up. But when members of estranged parents’ forums skim over horrors and act like they don’t exist, they’re fixing reality. Estranged parents are good and loving. Estranged adult children are selfish and abusive. Estranged parents cannot have abused estranged adult children. Estranged adult children who say they were severely abused are lying, or they just… don’t exist.
(If you don’t acknowledge something, then it didn’t happen. Right?)
When someone rewrites another person’s reality like that, they’re showing where their boundaries lie. They can’t accept a reality in which a total stranger did something bad, because that stranger has a “same as me” tag, and if the stranger is bad then they, personally, are bad.* How much more rewriting would that person do when the one who did something bad was themselves?
* Note that “did something bad” equals “is bad.”
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I have something to say about the “estranged children as spoiled brats” or “they estranged because we did too good a job parenting them” idea. One of the estranged parents notes that a common theme is “we treated them more like equals than parent and child.” Did they never notice that this is BAD PARENTING? You’re not SUPPOSED to treat your child as your equal. You’re not SUPPOSED to spoil your child. If they admit to being “too good,” that’s the same as admitting to being bad parents, and that could very well be the reason for estrangement. TOO MUCH PRESSURE can cause an adult child to self-destruct.
Exactly. They rarely recognize that they put too much pressure on their kids, especially pressure to care for the parents’ emotions–that’s a type of pressure that doesn’t exist in their world. They’d translate “too much pressure” as too much pressure to achieve academically, and although occasionally they admit to that, it was for the kid’s own good and either the kid succeeded (so it was the right thing to do, really), or the kid fell apart and took up drugs and partying (so the kid was inherently bad and needed more discipline, not less; who knows what they’d have gotten up to if the parents eased up on the pressure?).
Or–greater irony–they recognize that it was bad parenting, but don’t think they bear any responsibility for the results because they thought they were doing the right thing. And intentions, as we all know, are magical.
That mom who admitted that her daughter was right about having been parentified but said “I don’t think it qualifies as abuse” is saying that the reason for estrangement is that she doesn’t take her daughter’s opinions seriously. It’s hard to wrap my mind around how she doesn’t see that! And YES, taking responsibility for one’s parents emotions is a TERRIBLE pressure load, and invisible to most of the people who look for academic (or athletic, etc.) pressure.
Give me a break. Most everyone can recognize that kind of abuse you talk about, Issendai, in a forum like that, But all kinds of people will join those forums if it suits their needs with all kinds of levels of complaints against their parents. Do you really believe there are no adult children who are evil to their parents?
There absolutely are adult children who are evil to their parents. The point of my post is that even when estranged parents’ forum members encounter accounts by estranged children that relate clear abuse, the parents refuse to recognize the abuse.
People join estranged children support groups because it DOES help them cope with their tainted relationship with their parents and give them a path to self-actualization. And none of us said that children can’t be evil to their parents and some parents cut ties with their children over that, which is also reasonable. Parents and their children should not be held to double standards and they are humans with their own thoughts and feelings.
I got in contact with my son who hasn’t contacted me for 3 months. One of his complaints is that I talk too much. Also I talk about trivial things, like my friends. He told me he was much happier when we stopped talking. Do I feel blame for anything I did wrong? No. A considerate son wouldn’t say this. (There was no reason. We were close, I was a good mother. I know because he used to tell me. Now he is inconsiderate and mean from what he tells me. My other son started not talking either.
So what were the other reasons he gave? You said the complaint about you talking too much was only one of his reasons. What were the others?
I think this is fixable. Ms. Garrison, despite the time passed since your comment I do want to offer a few observations and suggestions FWIW. *There are phone people and not phone people-the latter treat their phone like an IED.* I have a number of these in my life who are the latter-and no surprise, they’re all male. They time out after 10 minutes, max. Truly, sometimes it’s just not personal.
How painful it must have felt to hear your son respond as he did. OUCH. My late husband use to say, “If you don’t want the answer, don’t ask the question.” OTOH, your adult offspring aren’t gonna tell you what you want to hear and instead respond with brutal honesty. That speaks to the reality you inculcated honesty in your kids-which is excellent. I’m sorry you got your feelings hurt but never ask a question unless you truly want an answer-ugly and hurtful as it may be. Now you have another adult offspring who is distancing themself from you. I bet your anxiety is through the roof. I’m truly sorry.
We as parents/adults have to adjust our expectations when they fly the nest. We are no longer in the daily mom/parent mode and all kinds of weird stuff is happening. The house is waaaayyyy too quiet. The daily dump of laundry isn’t there (start looking under beds.) We cook for the feeding of the five thousand only to learn leftovers after a few days are just not appealing. Gallons of milk sit in the fridge unopened. What happened?
My friend, they are fledged. *Now it’s your turn to fly.* You parented until it was no longer necessary-in their world. Congrats, you did your job successfully! Now what? It’s time to pivot into a new role. It’s been decades since you had the opportunity to introspect and figure out who you are. You had an Identity long before the kids came along, but who are you now? This is your task at this time in your life: Identity Formation. We revisit this psychosocial process many times in our lives starting in adolescence.
So you talk too much-about the minutiae of your life. It’s hard to recognize when *all our patter is about us.* If they grunt periodically in response, it’s enough to set off the Verbal Viagara and one continues their deep dive into some frankly boring, irrelevant stuff. They don’t care about your mindless chatter, *they just are busy as hell.* Some people have a great difficulty with silence in conversation and fill it with non-stop chatter-about themselves.
Of course they’re gonna tell you you’re a good mommy. How in sweet jeebus are they gonna get you off the phone?! Your son has enough integrity to answer your question honestly. That’s not being “inconsiderate,” it’s Reality and you taught them to speak their Truth. When they do, you get all butthurt. See the double bind here?
Ms. Garrison, this isn’t an either/or situation, OK? It’s an ever evolving cycle that all human beings encounter. Please, don’t turn this into a debate about your parenting. Our kids grow up and now, we need to move on and discover our own interests and again, our own Identity.
One of the primo experiences I’ve encountered is the joy of giving back. You like to talk? Fine. How about volunteering to read books for audiobooks? You could do this and expand your own knowledge base and reach well beyond what you could imagine-and have the satisfaction of knowing someone somewhere is benefiting from your selflessness.
Drop the “blame” and “inconsiderate” stuff. Please try to remember how freakin’ busy you were all those decades ago and how little extra time you had to listen to anyone
so relentlessly pounding your ear with their stuff you’d rather stick an ice pick in your ear than answer the phone. It’s not about being a “good” parent. It’s about stepping back and not depending on our adult offspring to confirm our Identity as Parent/Mommy With The Most-est. Your insecurities are your’s to manage-and you can do this. A whole new chapter in your life is emerging which doesn’t mean your kids don’t love you, they’ve moved on into their adult lives *which are incredibly busy.* And you need to move on, likewise.
Let them call you and for a change, say “hey thanks for the call, catch ya later” after max 10 min. You end the call after a very short conversation. In the meantime, remember there is so much more to you than your role as “mom.” It’s now your turn to allow the process of metamorphosis to unfold in your own life.
Best wishes, Ms. Garrison. I truly believe with some honest introspection you can turn this around.
Our son and daughter-in-law and grandkids choose to be estranged to us. I have been falsely accused of sexual abuse, slandered on Facebook and sworn at by both of them. There are zero communication skills amd accusations are never clarified or a willingness to seek counseling (separately or together) to hear what happened. It’s a roller coaster as we constantly seek professional counseling and make amends when we feel we might have crossed a line of respect in honoring our daughter in law. ie) asking them over for dinner too often which is monthly, not helping enough,
Etc. After 8 years of this abuse, we have had to let go. Seriously considering filing a claim of false accusation (my son knows this didn’t happen and I would never ever harm a child let alone my son!). This is all social media gone wrong! Self diagnosis, catch praises such as narcissistic and gas-lighting, etc! It seems to be the new fad. Feel for the grandkids as they are the ones who can not have relationships with healthy cousins, aunts and uncles and grandparents. It’s a shame.
Dear Sandi with an “i” (unanimously voted the meanest girl in junior high), I was gonna just let this one fly without a reply. However, you provide TMI to resist so here is my bestest reply: Grab your gonads, you’re about to get fried.
Let us review your comment in all its glorious stupidity: They “chose” to leave your ass in the grass because there was no trash pick up on that day. Clearly, you are as bright as a burned out lightbulb in a night light so let the Truth commence: WTF are you doing on social media? Farcebook and its kin are the playground of children and the disordered so yes, the latter would absolutely appeal to you because your alleged “adult” maturity is that of a kid in 7th grade.
De Facts: “…we constantly seek professional help..” It took you eight years of flunking out of therapy to decide the “problem” isn’t you? Sweet Stuff, it *IS* YOU. When therapist after therapist fires your azz or they’re not telling you what you want to hear? *This is a “You” problem.* Your demands for a Command Performance at regular intervals speaks to the illusion in which you bask-which is ridiculous: You are not that important. People have lives apart from you and demands on their time trumps your illusions of being Super Mommy, the “Matriarch” of all you believe you command. To be clear, this whole “Mommy” crap is nauseating. Your Matriarchal Crown is as faux as your comment. Sit down, child.
*Your adult offspring owe you nothing.* By all means please find yourself an ambulance chasing attorney who will gladly pick your pocket for some lucre (look it up, simpleton) for your ButtHurt.
Take your 20 lb. bag of frozen meatballs from Costco, the case of generic Ragu, the half dozen or more containers of boxed wine (which makes you just whine more) along with your no-bake “cheesecake” and feed the poor. Buzz the unfortunate. Pretend you’re Lady Bountiful and for once in your pathetic life act from this foreign concept called “selflessness.”
You didn’t “cross a line.” You blew it up when you were told NO.
Back off. Your ego is as over wrought as your belief in your (insufferable) overbearing, noxious, obnoxious position that some how, you’re so very right. Your adult offspring are far more mature than you. And no, they’re not coming back. Get a life IRL. Your dream world is exactly that: Some illusion you use to bolster your ego. You just don’t matter all that much nor does your pathetic whining.
You disgust me just as much as you disgust your adult offspring.
And because it’s a Command Performance you demand, tune in to WQXR in NY. They have a program just for you, Sandi with an “i” to assuage your ridiculous try. Pretend you’re an adult-you might get a different result.
You honestly think this is an appropriate response? This makes you look utterly childish. It is the sort of reply that definitely makes me feel more sympathetic to Sandi, not to you.
Sandi says: “we have had to let go” — LOL! 🤣 Wonder if she’ll actually stick by that, though, and leave them TF alone? 🙄 Or more likely, it’s just a temporary “ceasefire” before she resumes attempting to insert her repellent self into their lives anew….
Today I came across this little gem. On a website called ‘Gransnet’, a post has been made in the public forum (relationships). It is titled ‘The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact’.
Some of those commenting are estranged parents, and ‘Gransnet’ does seem to have quite a few of them.
The OP was supposedly sent a letter by someone who is estranged and has encountered estranged children forums, and explains why adult children go ‘no contact’ with family members. One reason includes adult children being part of a ‘no-contact’ cult, and in the letter it says:
‘I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I’m toxic when I feel it’s the other way around. We’ve been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we’ve all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It’s like they’re reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called “Going No Contact”. It’s literally a scripted plan that they follow.’
Another member has suggested that they make use of this script to deal with their EC, so the problem isn’t the parent who has been cut-off, but the script that the adult child is following – the script is telling the child what to do.
‘But here’s the good part. Now that see what’s out there, we have more of an idea of what’s going on. So if a parent has been co for the first time, and they read this stuff, they know it might just be a to (time out), a break their ac is taking to sort things out in their own head.
If a parent finds themselves blocked on fb, not receiving replies to voicemails, etc. then they would know, sadly, that their ac has gone nc. Ok, maybe they would sort of figure that out, anyway. But at least they would know it’s part of a “script,” and that trying to reestablish contact probably won’t help.’
On the upside, if the estranged parent doesn’t attempt to re-establish contact with the EC because they think the EC is following a script, that can only be a good thing.
On the same thread is something I found truly scary, and shows no genuine concern for the safety of young children, and clearly puts the wants of the toxic or abusive person before the best interests of a child. It was posted by a member that has also posted on an EC forum (or somewhere that is supportive of EC).
‘I had some long conversations with some of them. I suggested that even if they (the grandparents) were “toxic” that a few minutes for the “toxic” person in a neutral place like a park would be beneficial (to the grandchild). And to make things more safe if necessary, for the parent to take along someone else with them. But I am not sure I made much progress.’
Unfortunately, this attitude is fairly commonplace amongst some of the estranged parents on this particular website, and they also seem to believe that it is helpful to expose a vulnerable child to abusive grandparents. It supposedly toughens up the child and teaches them how to deal with abusive behaviour. Thankfully, child abuse charities don’t agree!
What I find amusing is that some of these individuals think that it’s acceptable to have forums and threads for estranged parents, but it’s not acceptable to have forums and threads for estranged or abused children/adult children. The former is support, but the latter is a CULT!!!
Issendai, even though I didn’t add a link to the website, I don’t know if you want to edit my comment and remove the name of GN. Some of the estranged parent threads can get so nasty, that it’s best for people not to engage.
So swallowing a teaspoon of deadly poison is better than a tablespoon-even if it’s still fatal to your children? And if you bring along a colleague to witness the pouring, measuring and ingesting of the poison that will ensure the proper rituals of poisoning have been maintained? Or is that to insure the results are not Unattended Deaths requiring those messy autopsies? Exposing your kids to people you know are abusive as hell “toughens them up?” What are they, meat to be salted and dried for winter consumption? Some kind of chew toy for your dogs? (For some of them, that would be correct.) Kid-Jerkey?
Apparently they are acknowledging they have no internal locus of control because they know better than to act out/be abusive in public; so, as long as the potential kid-jerkies are meeting with with the known abusers in a park etc. the abusers will behave. Huh. I have a similar problem with their definition of “behave” as they have of my definition of “respect.” And “abuse/neglect” is the Middle East of non-negotiables.
I wouldn’t bring my kids to see ANYONE behind a plexiglass partition with a phone for “conversation.” The likelihood I’m gonna expose them willingly to a known predator in the wild is nonexistent. Or do ya think I’m gonna hoist them up and over the wall and moat for your entertainment? I don’t care how many people are watching, a bite or lunge only takes a second.
Before you get to play do-over/”grandparent,” you have to demonstrate consistently you know how to Adult first. NC=Not a Chance. In hell. That’s remotely possible.
EPs put far more thought-actually rumination-about their ACs after NC than they ever before. Therefore, the ACs are also engaging in endless plots and plans to thwart the Gpts but the Gpts will persevere and win! They will inform one another how to break the law, how to expose their own pathology in even more disturbing ways, how to ensure NC is forever etc. but hey, their ungrateful little bitches/bastards started it!
It just never occurs to them even slime molds that don’t have a brain or CNS know to move away when they’re poked.
Tundra Woman, the attitude that it’s beneficial to children to expose them to abuse or allow them to be abused to teach them how to deal with abuse really bothers me. It’s like saying that to teach kids about drug abuse, you go to your local dealer to get some drugs, start using, develop problems with addiction, and then get your kids to deal with your addiction and sort things out.
Yeah, exactly-it disturbs me as well in a variety of different ways. After all, if “nothing happened” why would you as an EP even state “abuse toughens the kids up?” Essentially, you’re calling yourself out as an Abuser. Or perhaps they are an abuse Perp as well as survivor who chose to continue to enable their own abusive parent(s) for what ever reason. But again, to continue to sustain this dynamic is their decision: They also had other options as adults. Does that make sense-or am I off base here? (I’ve had a couple strokes-my thoughts do get muddled.) I guess EPs consider contact with your children as not only an inherent Right but some kind of Exposure Therapy for when the grandkids come in contact with the “Real Abusers”(tm.)
Once again though, I see this rationalization for “toughen the kids up” is based on a Foundational Belief I’ve encountered numerous times IRL as well as among cyberspace EPs: Abusers do not see themselves as abusers. Ever. That belief is so fundamental, pervasive and global, even when confronted with overwhelming objective evidence of their rampant abuse/neglect the abuser will continue to deny, minimize, rationalize etc.
And even if we were to stretch this reasoning to substituting the word “bullies” in place of abusive grandparents, why the hell would you want to teach them by modeling “bullying starts at home” by the very people whose most fundamental task is the care and protection of your children/grandchildren? Shouldn’t home and family (immediate and extended) be at least safe? A place of refuge?
No, you’re not off base. I was abused and haven’t been in contact with my family for many years, and was raised with the idea that it’s up to the child to behave like a grown-up, and toughen up and deal with the abuse or learn to ‘take it’. It’s not up to the abusive parent to behave like an adult, take responsibility for their actions, and stop being abusive. This is probably why this idea bothers me so much.
Both my parents were abusive, but they don’t recognise themselves as abusers, even though the situation was sometimes dangerous. My mother wasn’t directly abused by her parents, but she may have witnessed abuse. My father was neglected, and I was also treated badly by my paternal grandfather. In my family, abuse was something you were expected to just put up with to make everybody else’s life easier. My parents could have made other choices, but instead continued to be abusive, and chose to do what was easiest for them. Sometimes, that’s what it seems to come down to, whatever’s easiest for the family. If that means allowing a child to be abused or handing a child over to an abusive grandparent, so be it.
Yes, yes, yes: “…and chose to do what was easiest for them.” Instead of the Right Thing. Instead of seeking help even when it was offered, suggested, available affordable etc. Nope. I will never understand why these relationships between two so completely unequal individuals, the child vs. the adult parent incur the expectation it is the CHILD’S responsibility to foster a relationship with the PARENT. The demand the CHILD enter the PARENT’S world instead of the parent entering the child’s world. We do not have the developmental abilities to do that no matter how desperately we want to please them-and as a result, we always fall short. It’s our “fault” for being somehow fundamentally, irrevocably deeply flawed. Never enough, never good enough, never worthy enough to even be considered we were human beings, kids and were doing typical kid stuff. As you observed, we are not “mini adults.” And yet, we kept trying over and over again.
There are two constant refrains I read from EPs that demonstrate how completely unwilling they are to even engage with their adult offspring as ADULTS, no matter how carefully the offspring couch their concerns-if they don’t rage, silent treatment, yell over, interrupt etc. the AC.
“I know I wasn’t perfect!” HUH? No AC walks away because of a lack of parental “perfection.” I find that interesting in that perfection is *exactly* what they demanded from US: Mini-adults whose only purpose was to be an accessory to make the parent look good-or at least competent. There was this obsessive need to be seen as anything but the abusive/neglectful people they were, IMO something of an over-compensation for their horrible treatment of their littles even as they grew into adulthood.
The other is, “I did the best I could.” No, you did what you did. THAT is your responsibility and the crux of the ultimate decision to NC: The (sad) acceptance of what happened to us, identifying it by it’s right names and addressing it with the EP. I often wonder if I protested I “did the best I could” on a geometry regents exam would that have been acceptable? Ohhellno. “I did the best I could” to retain bladder control when you literally beat the piss out of me-for what I have no idea? Would that have kept you from becoming even more incensed at my proported “intransigence?” I was a small child, you were a big adult. Were you “doing the best you could” by beating a little half to death? By telling that adolescent continually they’d never amount to anything, by relentless excoriating criticism? The standards that were set for us were not only unrealistic but in complete opposition to those which the parents held themselves. If you want to be “respected,” at least attempt to live an example of a life your kids CAN respect.
There is such moral bankruptcy in engaging in a pattern of doing the Easy rather than the Right Thing. They knew the difference. As long as we kept out mouths shut they were sure we’d keep their secrets.
Until we didn’t. Then it was Time for Scorched Earth War. NC is the last option and unfortunately, the only one left. If EPs are “surprised” it simply confirms their pattern of indifference at best to their ACs.
I don’t think they miss us particularly so much as they’re tantruming over the loss of Supply, of our presence as a Cover Story of being “Brilliant parents” (yes, I read that and thought deargawd, really?) and horrific fear they will be exposed as the abusive, neglectful, fundamentally dishonest people they are and will continue to be to their last breath. Hubris, not “Karma” is at work here, no matter how much EPs need to believe in magic or more accurately wishful thinking.
I am sorry you also grew up with this insanity. It’s effects are enduring and I know there are vestiges of growing up this way I will carry to my death. At least our own children won’t be casualties of our EPs Legacy. Kids love unconditionally, are born hard wired to bond with their primary caretakers. You have to work hard and consistently to destroy their hope and their love as well as overcome DNA/ neuroscience.
Congratulations EPs, you’ve been wildly successful.
Tundra woman, what you’ve said really resonates with me. You’re only allowed to be a mini-adult and not a child, at the same time, there’s this constant switching between infantilization and parentification. Then there’s the repetitive ‘I did the best I could’ mantra, even if ‘I did the best I could’ involves putting a gun to your head, and behaving as if that loaded gun just accidentally got there. And to top it all off, if you don’t obey the abusive parent and let them do whatever the hell they like, then karma or God will ‘get you’.
“…constant switching between infantilization and parentification.” Exactly. It’s like playing jump rope constantly from “now be a child,” “now be an adult” on demand. It’s exhausting and gawdhelpyou if you get it wrong. This demand has had one of the most enduring impacts on my own life.
I shudder every time I read an EPs words re: their AC- “We were best friends…”
That’s an instant kill shot. Chillingly there is zero self-awareness behind this assertion.
The OP has supposedly been researching estrangement but clearly hasn’t, and changes or ignores information that doesn’t support her way of thinking. She posted this about an estranged AC with a blog:
‘She’s very angry with her parents, advises complete cut off, has cut them off for the last decade, is broke, still angry, an orphan, life sucks, it’s her parents fault that she had to quit college, (no funds because she’s not speaking to her parents)
So, if she’s cut them off, why would they pay for college? It seems she’s not any happier.’
This isn’t how the blogger comes across at all, and doesn’t blame her parents for the fact that she quit college. She simply states the facts:
‘When I was 18, there were no resources available for young adults who were trying to manage higher education with no parental support. I had to drop out of school because I couldn’t pay for it.’
Nowhere does she advise that other AC MUST cut off contact with their parents. She doesn’t come across as particularly angry, in fact, the OP sounds a hell of a lot angrier than this blogger.
‘For those AC who have had loving, caring parents and the relationship was previously good, but you’ve taken the advice from people you hardly know and gone NC, you really need to take a good look at yourselves and the impact you are having on your parents. Estrangement is a killer make no mistake. Parents have ended their lives or become ill and died.
If you can sit and eat your Christmas dinner knowing your parents are facing the bleakest of days, the problem isn’t them.’
OP is clearly well-practised in the fine art of emotional manipulation and guilt-tripping!
Wow, I guess! They’re also well practiced in the Darkest Dungeons of the Art of Self-Deception. And this also falls under the category of “Cognitive Distortions” as Issendai has adroitly demonstrated. Yes, apparently we engage in premeditated homicide when we NC: Histrionic much?! One would think having contact with the “toxic” AC was so distressing they would be grateful to be released from their suffering via NC. Apparently not: Now we’re killing them! At a distance! Must be homicide by teleportation. This re-writing of history and slash and burn “reporting” is so common and so obvious it’s a hallmark of the “Cult of Abusive/Neglectful Parents” at EP Forums. So ACs who NC belong to a “cult,” and follow a “script” and they’re a bunch of meanies etc. Hmm, the evolution of these developments started somewhere…and of course, it’s “this generation” who form the genesis of the “NC Movement.” Which is “rampant.” Unfortunately, there’s too many of us who NCd decades ago and are old enough to be the EP parents if not grandparents. (Le cringe) In fact, I have observed a not unsubstantial number of EPs are AlSO estranged from their own parents/family. So help me understand, what generation would that be?
This whole “cult” and “script” thing has the creepy overtones of the typical Conspiracy Theory wackos IMO. NC is always some form of highly contagious disease according to the EPs. Their ACs “catch it” from one another, from their siblings and often multiple half siblings, their Partner, their ex, the media, the Large Hadron Collider, UFO Occupants AND now, in breaking news we have a NEW development! This “script!” I want to see this “literal script” please: “Literal” def.: exactly following the words of the original, matter of fact, prosaic.” So where is it? I have a feeling we’re back to the “Rare Sighting of the Kid Who NCd For No Good Reason!” (para) Yep, ACs have been “brainwashed” by a “script” that makes them do it! As you observed, it’s cray cray enough just to read the slash and burn reporting in response to the AC’s Blog (the commenter may be the Blogger’s family member) but now we have a new source of “causality.” I can’t help but observe they consistently get Cause and Effect exactly ass backwards. Even when they have MULTIPLE ACs who have estranged, it’s never related to anything involving the EP. I can’t wrap my little old widow lady stroke brain around how a parent-who is the Constant in this equation-deludes themselves (actually absolves themselves) of any possible involvement regarding the Independent Variable multiple ACs who beat feet. That requires some mental gymnastics I can’t fathom outside a mental health unit. There’s “loose associations” and then there’s EP WTF?! So where’s this letter the OP received? Who is “we?” And how long and what methods have been used to support this alleged “research?”
This “script” thing also seemed to evolve as a hot topic at another EP Forum. But concurrently, a poster who is a Grandparents Rights person (she visited one of those sites sort of, maybe, well, for sure when it involves creating drama) relays their own Grandparent’s Rights “script,” the detailed steps one by one to “keeping in touch” with their estranged grandkids even though it’s an IRL guide to exposing yourself as completely batshit to even more people/institutions while ensuring you’ll upset your grandkids. But hopefully this will inflame an angry response from the AC parents who will reply with a nasty gram which needs to be laminated and saved in their scrapbook of “Granny: All About MEEEE!” (Playing “Gotcha,”) and DIY Easy Peasy Techniques and Strategies for Getting Served With a Lifetime Restraining Order. Note the day after reporting this Guide for Bashit Grandparents she starts a thread on how she’s not getting involved in drama-but she sees absolutely no contradiction to her very explicit “How To Create Drama, 101” post of the previous day. The kindest thing I can say about this poster is they have the attention span of ADD gnat.
Welp. It’s been “a uuuuugh” couple of weeks for “Scripts” in the EP world! Conspiracies! Everywhere!
I think your ‘little old widow lady stroke brain’ is doing very well, and I hope you’re doing okay after multiple strokes. That’s a hell of a lot to deal with.
Even though I haven’t been in contact with my family for many years, I’m still getting my head around how abusive/estranged parents think. The ‘script’ thing has blown my mind.
‘Even when they have MULTIPLE ACs who have estranged, it’s never related to anything involving the EP. I can’t wrap my little old widow lady stroke brain around how a parent-who is the Constant in this equation-deludes themselves (actually absolves themselves) of any possible involvement regarding the Independent Variable multiple ACs who beat feet.’
In response to another post on this blog, I wrote:
‘I spent years trying to get my family to understand and take responsibility for what they’d done. It was a complete waste of time. They never even seemed to understand that my father rampaging about with a shotgun, and threatening to murder his entire family was unacceptable behaviour. For crying out loud, when it comes to abusive behaviour, how obvious can it get?’
You just can’t get through to these people.
‘EPs put far more thought-actually rumination-about their ACs after NC than they ever before. Therefore, the ACs are also engaging in endless plots and plans to thwart the Gpts but the Gpts will persevere and win! They will inform one another how to break the law, how to expose their own pathology in even more disturbing ways, how to ensure NC is forever etc. but hey, their ungrateful little bitches/bastards started it!’
From the letter:
‘They don’t know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries. Google “Going No Contact”. You will find pages and pages of groups (the cult) and instructions (the script) that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information (the script) can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on “Going No Contact”. It’s like a map to navigate this territory (the cult). It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking “You’re such a lemming”. Who the hell would follow this crap. They would, that’s who.’
So the EP who wrote this letter is planning to track down this imaginary script that only exists in her head, as if it’s some kind of EP Holy Grail that the EP can use to control, outwit and hurt the AC. Then she’s going to use this imaginary script to remove her AC from an imaginary ‘no-contact’ cult, which isn’t going to happen because there’s no cult, no script, and who wants contact with a barking EP?
Backing away from the insanity now.
“We can learn what they want us to do so we can do the opposite.” And yet, they proport to desire “Reconciliation?” (Face/screen. Groan.) And see no straight up contradiction with promoting/engaging in behavior that is clearly Retribution? NC results most fundamentally IMO because the EP’s behavior makes the past manifest in the PRESENT and the AC finally accepts this Reality. Retribution only underscores the EP’s dehumanization of their offspring: In order to extract retribution on another human being, you can not afford to see them as fully human, “like me” vs. “not like me.” I’ve suspected EPs-despite their assertions they know their offspring better than the offspring knows themselves-do not view their ACs as fully human beings in their own right. Some DO state exactly this sentiment or some variation of it regularly. No wonder they’re shocked when the AC finally walks away: Their belief in their infallibility has been shaken to the core. Do they learn from it? No. Again, hubris results in Doubling Down on the same or similar behaviors that landed them in the deep end of the EP pool initially.
The EP Principle of “I’d Rather Be Right Than Be Reasonable” is in obvious play here-even if it results in getting arrested, facing legal sanctions with big $$$ costs and an RO that essentially states it’s in effect until hell freezes over. Excellent synopsis: “Control, outwit and hurt the AC.” For sport, apparently it’s “amusing.”
Yeah, that’ll “work.” So I guess when she “captures” her run-away AC the plan is to re-program the AC’s hijacked hard drive?
The thinking of EPs has so much in common with the mind set of career criminals it’s truly striking. There’s certainly a variety of life circumstances and personal piss poor choices that land people in jail/prison, but not ALL of them have this particularly troubling world view and entitled sense of self. However, when they do, the only reality based recommendations state essentially one can not instill a conscience where none exists nor can efforts at rehabilitation result in anything further than a more florid belief in their exceptionalism and distain for pro-social thinking/behavior. The only difference I observe between EPs and career criminals is the latter were prosecuted.
I’m grateful ACs now have at least the knowledge and resources to know they’re not alone. Bruises fade. Broken bones mend. Burns scar over. It is the psychological/emotional Legacy that leaves the longest demands. I’m equally as grateful EPs have spaces to ritually shit on their defective ACs: After all, if NC=Premeditated murder, dead people don’t engage in homicide.
Apparently mine was a Zombie. And there’s plenty more where she came from.
‘So I guess when she “captures” her run-away AC the plan is to re-program the AC’s hijacked hard drive?’
It was seen as my duty as the daughter to sacrifice my life for my mother. I was supposed to remain at my parents house to be abused, to serve and obey for the good of the FAAMILLY, never being permitted to have any normal life of my own. Letting my mother abuse me was viewed as a way of keeping her under control (as an adult, I’m now horrified that my family did this), because when she was abusing me, it made life easier for everyone else. When I wasn’t around, her tantrums would get worse and she’d look for another victim.
I disobeyed my family and left home in my teens, and it was something they never forgave me for. I’d changed, I was different, I was hard, and not the girl that I’d once been. They would speak about me as if I was some kind of faulty unit that had gone wrong, and needed to be repaired or reprogrammed, and once I’d been repaired I’d be the good little robot that I once was, complete with the essential off-button to prevent me from escaping or keep me quiet when I was in the way.
‘dehumanization of their offspring…’
Definitely!
‘It is the psychological/emotional Legacy that leaves the longest demands.’
This is why I get so angry when people tell me to forgive my family, resume contact (so I can be abused), and just ‘get over it!’
Once again, the child is TOLD who they are: They have a pre-determined Identity super-glued on them by the parent(s) from their earliest experiences. Yes, it’s painful beyond words to be one of the children who becomes the designated repository for “all that ails this family” and as a result, becomes the “Family Shock Absorber”/Designated Patient. “When she was abusing me it made life easier for everyone else”-Truth-very astute observation. The Designated Whipping Post kid is often subject to additional Proxy abuse on behalf of the EP by the other family members who know if that sibling becomes unavailable for this Role, the others in turn may become the potential Whipping Post. I refer to these families as the “The Lord of the Flies” Rendition of Neglectful/Abusive Parental Strategies: They’re outnumbered, outgunned, effectively isolated and react with Rage, Withdrawal or some combination of both. At worst, they become suicidal. Their normal response to on-going maltreatment is offered as further evidence of the “defective kid” narrative rather than the result of really poor parenting. Kids are not idiots-they understand Differential Treatment and are at a loss to understand why this is happening to them. Lacking other sources of confirmation (again, all abusers isolate their victims) shamed and blamed, they deeply internalize this Identity as “Fatally Fucked Up, The Source of All The Problems In This Family.”
Leaving as a teen must have been quite a perilous journey but props to you for getting out. Differentiation and Identity Formation *are* the Developmental Tasks of adolescence so when a teen leaves their family, they’re certainly not equipped with the knowledge or experience to negotiate that transition smoothly, regardless of how Parentified they’ve been. There are still Tools they have not yet mastered because they’re a combination of “way too old way too young” while concurrently grappling with those normal Developmental Tasks of Identity Formation. When your Identity has been a Cut and Paste job thanks to abusive/neglectful parenting that has no basis whatsoever in who the child actually IS, it becomes yet more fraught for one traversing the challenges of Adolescence/Early Adulthood: It certainly sets the individual up for failure. Which once again, reinforces the whole “you’re the problem,” “you’ll never amount to anything without MEEEEE!” etc. The recognition of the ongoing sabotage often takes a substantial period of little to no contact with the FOO and opportunities to reflect on their experiences. From their fragmented, seemingly unrelated disparate events, eventually a pattern emerges as does the recognition it was not the child that was “the problem.” Why wouldn’t you be furious?! That’s so normal it’s, well, NORMAL!
Ohlawd, the whole “Forgiveness” thing: I blundered onto the “Forgiveness Police” very early in my cyber travels. Unwittingly I “contributed” to a conversation of very like minded individuals (not like my mind) and stated I had never “forgiven” the abusive parent (gasp!) and in fact, forgiveness had never even crossed my radar (torches and pitchforks!) Which was met with silence-initially. And when I ventured back a few days later, apparently I had lobbed a frag grenade into a large Forgiveness Marketplace and walked away unaware I had just committed mayhem and mass murder: “If you don’t forgive, that’s like drinking poison and expecting the other person to DIE!” “IF you don’t (blaa blaa) you’ll be an ANGRY BITTER super-bitter person!” “GHANDI SAYS….” multiple comments rendered with all the hysteria of the typical 4th Grade Bathroom Monitor who caught another kid trying to “go first” (before their bladder burst.) It seemed like I was stuck in bumper to bumper traffic behind a vehicle that had a collection of bobble heads on their rear window shelf mindlessly bobbing up and down-but a lot more animated and pissed off.
Well, that’s why Ghandi is Ghandi-and I’m not. Ingesting Poison? Imma little smarter than that. “Angry?” “Bitter?” I’ve been called a lot of things, but aside from a cray cray parent who was a Rager on Steroids and a Projection Machine, nope.
No one even asked me “why?” Huh. I guess I’m just a “Forgiveness Failure” reject because I wasn’t interested in winning the AC “Miss Congeniality Contest.” Didn’t even know there was a competition with only one “correct” answer to this holy-ire than hell conundrum. The reality is, would I “forgive” a deer for being a deer? A bear for being a bear? Or a snake because it shed it’s skin on my patio? These are not “harmless” beings, BTW-But that would be ridiculous, right? Bottom Line: They Are Who They Are. Full stop. Who else sees the world in such black and white terms, “either/or?” Yep!
So I can only tell ya I’m old, I haven’t spontaneously combusted, I haven’t been struck down by lightning bolts nor have I ever considered putting out a contract for a hit on my abusive parent. (But she did on me-I’m not kidding.) Ya gotta have some significant emotional feelings around someone to “hate” them or wait impatiently for the “Karma Bus” to do a hit and run on anyone. I did however, spend decades drowning frantically in my own hubris for thinking I could “help” the hopelessly Disordered Abusive Parent for whom the destroyed remnants of her pyrrhic victory including her family, neighbors, co-workers, community etc. spanning decades up to her physical death had nothing to do with her…even though she was the only common denominator in the wreckage of the lives left in her rear view mirror. Betcha couldn’t guess how this could have happened?! Yep, it was everybody else’s fault: She was a professional highly experienced Victim now with impeccable credentials and references. So much for that Legacy!
Please try not to get caught up in anything that remotely smacks of “lemme tell ya who you are and what cha need to do to meet my definition (or Ghandi’s!) of a decent person.” Or “Heal” and don’t forget the other buzz word, “Closure.”
ACs have BTDT and have several shredded commerative t-shirts that attest to the futility of that endeavor.
Thoughts? Experiences? Feelings?
“I did however, spend decades drowning frantically in my own hubris for thinking I could “help” the hopelessly Disordered Abusive Parent”
Drowning in my own hubris. Oh yes, that is the perfect description of it. I did that for a long time. It’s like a weird little side street of codependency which feels slightly better because you feel like you’re the sensible and in control one even though they’re still actually manipulating you.
There’s a whole new website devoted to this sort of nonsense now – I hope it’s OK to link to it directly as it’s an AC site, not an EP one.
WTF! This website is supposed to help children? It’s like a step-by-step guide on how to be abused and remain a victim for the rest of your life.
I know, right?
BWHHAHAHAAAAAA! Looks like a Trojan Horse/Clickbait, whatever.
But I have a perverse sense of humor-I just can’t take that seriously. Deargawd, really?!
Yeah, taking that “side road” was retrospectively my completely batshit way of indulging my own ignorance. And more importantly, not taking the hint this woman did NOT like me at ALL. (Or what/who she thought was “me.”) There was one positive development that came out of it: I walked away/NC’d with no regrets in the sense I knew I had done everything I possibly could to facilitate a relationship that had de facto exploded on the launchpad long before I arrived.
Knock yourself out, TW! And I did.
That’s not to infer I was happy with that outcome at all. It was a sad acceptance of what was and would continue *into the indefinite future* given the vagaries of medical science etc. She’s who she is. And I had nothing left to give.
Stepping back allows objectivity to emerge. I finally realized if my presence wasn’t helping (and it wasn’t, for either of us) then my absence wouldn’t hurt. That’s why I can not comprehend how removing oneself from an individual or the relationship that is clearly upsetting, unacceptable, etc. to them is re-configured into an act of aggression. Once again, damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t.
It’s genuine. There’s an article in the Guardian, and the comments are the best! https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/11/horrid-parents-how-survive-them-alyson-corner-angela-levin
It was in the Guardian and everything!. It makes me angry to think that by getting exposure like that it might become the sort of mainstream baseline for how to deal with abusive parents.
‘Please try not to get caught up in anything that remotely smacks of “lemme tell ya who you are and what cha need to do to meet my definition (or Ghandi’s!) of a decent person.” Or “Heal” and don’t forget the other buzz word, “Closure.”
ACs have BTDT and have several shredded commerative t-shirts that attest to the futility of that endeavor.’
I agree, and I don’t forgive my family and I REALLY am okay with that. After forgiving my family for god knows how many years (overwhelming pressure put on me to do so), I learned that it was a complete waste of time, and have often thought of it as an exercise in futility. The only thing that happened when I forgave my family and resumed contact was that the abuse got worse, and escalated to the point where the situation became dangerous (again), but people still put pressure on me to forgive, not caring about what happened to me. Abuse isn’t a crime or a sin, but NOT forgiving or allowing your family to repeatedly hurt you is. This is the reaction of EPs when they come across EC forums. The EP isn’t the problem but the AC is, because they’re unforgiving, selfish, narcissistic, hard, bitter, or any other term that can be used to manipulate or shift responsibility for the abuse from abuser to victim. What was done to the AC is always irrelevant!
My parents aren’t religious, but I used to be a Christian and my brother has extreme Christian views. My response now when people start raving on about forgiveness or Christian forgiveness is ‘F**k forgiveness, I’ve gone Viking!’ Forgiveness for me was a prison, and filled me with nothing but fear and dread. I knew that when I forgave my family things would ALWAYS get worse. There was NEVER a feeling of being unburdened, peace, contentment or healing, all the things that other people say that you will feel when you do the ‘right thing’ and forgive. In fact, it turns out that ‘the right thing’ is often the wrong thing for the victim of abuse, but right for everyone else. You forgive and resume contact with the people that hurt you, and then everyone else puts a nice shiny gloss over the top, giving themselves a pat on the back for reuniting a family and pretending that everything’s wonderful and lovely. In reality, a victim of abuse has been forced back into an abusive situation and might even lose their life. It goes back to the idea of doing the easy and selfish thing, but never doing what’s right.
I moved on from the abuse through acceptance and not forgiveness (even though offers insist you MUST forgive) and was angry for a long time, but eventually reached a point of indifference. People often talk about anger as if it’s a bad thing, and if you don’t forgive and let go of that anger then you can’t move on. This is complete and utter BS! As a child, I was prevented from feeling anger, because I was only permitted to feel what my parents said I could feel, and any display of anger, distress, upset etc was a reminder and a sign of their abusive behaviour. Therefore, I wasn’t permitted to feel it, but until you are allowed or in a position to express and deal with these feelings then you can never move on. This is the irony when you’re told that you must forgive and NOT feel anger in order to move on, because until you’re allowed to feel the anger there’s no way in hell you can.
I don’t know who’s to blame for this forgiveness malarkey (and it’s not just Christians), but it seriously pisses me off!
I was a ‘Lord of the Flies’ child (love this description, actually makes me feel better about my situation). Never allowed to react, be unforgiving or express anger or distress in any kind of normal way, and always refused help even though others knew I was being abused. This resulted in truancy (for months at a time); drinking alcohol at the age of 12; attempted suicide.
The good news is that I managed to escape the ‘plague zone’.
Anger, oooo, shame on you! But not them, there’s no causality attached to them like a bad stink at all, nope, none. It seems EPs think “Forgiveness,” much like having a relationship with the parents in order to have any contact with the “grrrraaannnddbanieeeessss!” is an a la carte menu. The adult offspring parents never get any of that forgiveness foi grais but their consolation prize is having the EP call CPS on them with some batshit complaint: “So there! I did give you something! A caseworker” that we know we should have had and could have used by the time we were 5.
Either that, or the EPs decide to just magnanimously confer some of their special elixir of transactional “gimme:” I have this picture in my mind of a wrinkled up old EP in a sorcerer’s Halloween costume wielding a cardboard magic wand, “Abra Kadabra and Yaba-Da-Ba-Do, Here’s some Faux Forgiveness from me to you-
Now hand over the grandkids.”
There’s some serious paranoia that goes on at EP sites. Periodically they implode like a black hole and suddenly, the number of posters/members drops significantly. Most are never heard from or sighted again. The executions take place behind the scenes but inevitably a few will turn up someplace else tattling on one another and talking about how toxic/crazy/fill in the blank whatever those “other people” are.
Sooner or later, everyone gets to have their spin on the EP Forum Wheel of Misfortune and/or their serial involuntary commitments to MH units discussed. There seems to be a correlation between the alleged number of admissions to a mental health unit and the number of partners they drag through through the mud. Somehow in the midst of all this mess, the only ones who they believe remain free from the muck is them.
Wadda surprise.
I’ve watched toddlers play together more harmoniously with a lot fewer fights or injuries than I’ve seen among EP long timers at Forums in Cyberspace.
This is a great thread. Hopefully it is still active. I have been hearing ‘forgive and forget’ my whole life. Anytime I felt hurt by someone I was told I just need to forgive. I was told I must be more tolerant and I am too sensitive. After a lifetime of physical attacks, insults, and endless mind games I ended the relationship with my parents. It was definately the right choice. But the trauma I experienced growing up still affects me daily. It affects all my relationships and many other parts of my daily life. I did try to talk to other people about my experiences with my family but noone ever understood. For example, my closest friend asked me why it would affect me now as it happened a long time ago. A therapist even said to me “But it happened a long time ago, it wouldn’t affect you now, right?” When I told a close member of my family I had to cut contact with my mother, they developed a fear I would dump them. They said, “If I make some little mistake, you’ll just never talk to me again.”
There is a social taboo against cutting contact with abusive parents. But the same rules apply to parents that apply to any other relationship. Violence, insults, cruelty is not ok in ANY relationship. My father and I learned to physically walk away when my mother was arguing and abusive. She sometimes would continue an arguement for hours, sometime days and even years. One time I just walked out the door. She yelled, “Your just like your father. Coward, coward, coward.” But if a person simply will not stop attacking, walking away is the right thing to do.
Hi Traveller, what your therapist said is completely unacceptable, and shows that he/she has no understanding of abuse or maybe has an agenda. Unfortunately, I’ve heard this same kind of thing many times on EC forums, and it makes me wonder who these therapists are, what is their agenda, and do they have the experience, training and qualifications to counsel victims of abuse? I hope you managed to find a therapist who isn’t in the habit of minimising abuse and enabling abusive parents, because this is what it is. I suppose a lot of it goes back to the idea of family, and you have no right to cut off contact with family no matter what they do to you, simply because they’re FAAMILLY! People will often pull the ‘blood is thicker than water’ card too, and I’ve only recently discovered that the actual saying is ‘the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of womb’ – the opposite of what I thought it meant! I wish I’d known that earlier, but then again, people will come out with all sorts of old and new BS to keep you trapped in an abusive situation to make their own lives easier. God forbid that they should have to deal with reality.
‘She sometimes would continue an arguement for hours, sometime days and even years’.
Yes, I remember those lengthy arguments/circular arguments well, and usually result in the abusive parent never taking responsibility for what they’ve done, or the inevitable ‘Why are you treating me this way?’ or ‘But I don’t know what I’ve done.’ Thankfully, my own abusive mother never took this behaviour onto EP forums which many of them do, but that’s only because she doesn’t know how to.
‘She yelled, “Your just like your father. Coward, coward, coward.” But if a person simply will not stop attacking, walking away is the right thing to do.’
My mother would do this too, normally accusing me of being childish or running away if I walked away from the abuse, but as you say, if someone won’t stop attacking you then it’s the right thing to do. I’ve seen this on EP forums a lot, where the AC is accused of being a coward, childish, immature, not having the ability to or are too weak to deal with problems if they say no to the abuse. EPs also do the same thing when they come across EC forums, being of the opinion that the ECs are simply refusing to deal with their problems, when in fact they have dealt with the problem by saying no to the abuse. But I suppose in the mind of the EP, not being a coward or dealing with the problem means giving into the EP and letting them abuse the crap out of you. They can even view it as abuse if you don’t let them abuse you, because you’re controlling, manipulating and abusing them if you won’t let them do what they want to do, which is abuse you.
Yeah, I kinda wondered if that was a “therapist” or a thera-pisssed off. Wonder what diploma mill this one purchased their bogus “credentials” from because I can’t imagine uttering a sentence like that to anyone under any circumstances. And expecting to get paid too?! Should pay the client for the OJT. I would have been tempted to respond, “Well 9/11 happened a long time ago, so it doesn’t effect people now, does it? The Big Bang happened a real long time ago so it doesn’t effect people now, does it? See that light from the stars at night? That light started it’s journey a long time ago so it doesn’t effect the retinas, rods, cones and optic nerves of people now does it?” (Especially considering a lot of that light eminated from a lot of now dead stars.)
I don’t see how ECs could possibly be “refusing to deal with any problems”-because according to the EPs there aren’t any. So how does one “refuse to deal with problems” that don’t exist?!
‘I don’t see how ECs could possibly be “refusing to deal with any problems”-because according to the EPs there aren’t any. So how does one “refuse to deal with problems” that don’t exist?!’
Ah, yes, abusive EPs live in a world of contradiction where logic doesn’t exist and nothing makes sense. My mother would dissociate, and in the end it got so bad that I thought she’d developed some form of dementia. This had been going on since I was a child, but continued to get worse over the years. By the time I was in my mid to late twenties, my mother was remembering conversations that we never had, repeatedly accusing me of things I hadn’t done, or not remembering things that had happened, some of which had spanned many years (my mother also developed problems with addiction at this time). My family continued to pretend that there wasn’t a problem, and would even go along with my mother’s lies (she’s been spreading lies about me since I was a child), sometimes outrageous and damaging lies that couldn’t possibly be true, rather than deal with what was happening. I was never told that my mother had problems with dissociation, but a little while back started looking into personality disorders and dissociation and this is the only thing that explains why my mother may have behaved in the way she did (not a diagnosis, but when you have a family that has always refused to deal with things, this is the best that you can do).
I once remember resuming contact with my mother after I’d not been in contact for a long time because she’d been so abusive. This was something she never admitted to or apologised for. When I resumed contact she was very angry that I’d not been in contact for a long time, but also angry and became increasingly abusive over the fact that I’d not attended the funeral of a former neighbour, a lady I’d not seen in many years, and someone my mother rarely had contact with during that time. I explained to my mother that I didn’t know about the funeral because I hadn’t been in contact so no-one could have told me about it, but she told me that we’d had a conversation about the funeral. I then explained that we couldn’t have had a conversation about it, because I wasn’t in contact. She then admitted to the fact that I hadn’t been in contact and was angry about it, but still insisted that we’d had a conversation about the funeral and was angry that I hadn’t attended. But we couldn’t have had a conversation about the funeral because I wasn’t in contact, which she admitted to!
This kind of contradiction seems to be commonplace on EP forums, and just goes to show that most of them will know what the truth is or what they’ve done, otherwise there’d be no contradiction. In my mother’s case, she knew damn well that I didn’t know about the funeral because she admitted to the fact that I wasn’t in contact during that time. As well as these contradictions, when EPs come across EC forums they ‘rewrite’ what they see and minimise or edit out the abuse, which Issendai writes about in the OP.
My mother dissociates too, and I also suspected dementia. She also remembers things that never happened, and attributes things that my GC sibling did as a teenager to me (drugs, teen pregnancy, DV).
The last I saw her, about 2-1/2 years ago, she was like a sleepwalker. She’d stare through people and be nonresponsive to questions. Even my friends saw it and commented that she “just isn’t there.” At one point she opened the gate and let our dogs out of our yard on our busy street, the whole time just staring at me while I shouted at her to close the gate (I was too far away to stop it). After we chased the dogs down and I asked her why she did it, she just looked at me and then walked away. It was like she just wanted to see what would happen and she was completely oblivious to anything else.
I have no idea if she actually does have dementia. According to GC, who saw her fairly recently, she doesn’t. I sometimes suspect some kind of psychosis, but who knows. Is psychosis a component of some PDs? I haven’t seen her in years now and I don’t intend to ever see her again. The (ironically) good news is that I got evidence this year of something she did to me that was so messed up that not even GC can justify it to himself. It also robbed me of all sympathy for her, which has freed me to completely dismiss her and not feel conflicted.
Hi Magpie, I don’t think that my mother had dementia anymore, particularly considering the fact that she’s always been this way. The dissociation just got worse over the years, but I do wonder how many AC with PD/potential PD parents consider this at some stage.
I don’t know about you, but I found ‘That just isn’t there’ look quite disturbing and chilling. It’s a look I remember from the time I was a child. Sometimes my mother would just stare at me or be in the midst of abusing me, and it really was like no-one or nothing was in there – just an empty shell.
It was terrifying. I use the dog example a lot, but it’s because it was inexplicable deliberate behavior that served no purpose but to put the dogs into danger, and she had no expression at all on her face while she did it. It was then that I realized that my daughter was probably not safe alone with her, because there was no connection to anything there. It was pure impulse.
I don’t think she has dementia either. I just think that she was either unwilling or unable to continue maintaining a facade of normalcy after all the years. Although she was always abusive and unstable, she knew how to hide it, at least from outsiders. I’ve talked before about how she had been having a lot of conflicts at work, which was unusual, and that she refused to see old friends. I just think that they get to a point where they just can’t maintain the boundaries between the dysfunction and normal, whether through fatigue or apathy. I have another family member going that way, and I wouldn’t have put him in the same category before, but as time goes on it looks more the same.
The dementia explanation is helpful for GC though because it’s a way for me to communicate that she’s not right without a value judgment. He doesn’t fully deserve that, but it does help to keep the conflict down.
It appears they came front end loaded with a form of dementia called Cluster B PDs.
Believe me, I’m even sorrier than my CB Mugger she went forth and strategically procreated. She is the soul(less) mate of that batshit Sharon Wild Woman or what ever her name is and every bit as relentless, shameless and money grubbing.
I have been estranged form my family and community since June 13, 2017.
I am a mother, daughter, aunt, ex wife, skilled movie industry sign writer, Woodbadge Leatership trained scouter, an enviromental and community service oriented person.
I fled, sick and scared form a tag team domestic abuse situation.
My first son had on two occations tried to black mail me using my fear of his Dad for popular electronic devices.
My isolating fear is that for the first 52 years of my life every one in my life is in someway influenced by my 2 main monsters, Dad and Ex husband.
Dad is a notable Rocket Scientist, Ex is a Emergency room physition.
Both men embodie the definition of callous.
Apathy is the only safe position for anyone I have ever associated with to take, as both monsters are unapoligic narrsists. Both remorseless.
My own passitiveity is beyond comparison.
I left my life not knowing I would become too scared to return with only my car and dog.
About a year ago my fear of communicating became irrational to the point of unmanagability so I have been phone less, mail free, and computer free for almost a year.
My car sits unused since March 2018.
I live in a small walkable town, in a comfortable furnished townhouse paid for auticamatically from a bank account I have not managed.
I am not suisidal.
This is the first week I have attempted to contact any one from my past, starting with my safest and least monster influenced friend.
Good so far.
It is a busy time to contact a professor so she will make FaceTime contact facilitated by my trusted friend.
I am patient, she is kind.
But in my busy life there are many dear and past aqaintences that I fear contacting as my departure was sudden and tramitic.
I know I must go slow to avoid over stimulation, and further deterioration into disfunction.
Does anyone have any considerate advice to help me relearn to use vital communication skills that people depend on?
I miss my children even the one that acts like his Dad.
I fear asking for help as a lifetime of programming from monsters has made me too fearful to ever even ask someone to speak on my behest, let alone admonish either man. Their high positions in life create an aura of mystique in all acquainted that somehow has provided them with an unfair protections as is common with white males at the tops of their fields. They intimidate and confuggle all present.
I don’t use people that way, because of my fear for the emotional safety of all parties, monsters included.
So I remain paused.
How do I learn to ask for help?