On the Inconvenience of Your Children’s Opinions
An estranged parents’ forum found an article on accepting feedback from your (underaged) kids. The article starts twee, then moves on to a genuine challenge:
In the fourth installment of our new CNN Digital Video series “Parent Acts,” we asked people to act out their shortcomings as parents and why it hurts so much when our kids point out those failings to us. We then had a parenting expert listen to their role play to weigh in with advice.
The result is a reflection on how to get past the stab of ego and use what your kids tell you to become a better parent. The failings listed by the parents in the article are ones many of the forum members have said they were guilty of: anger, yelling, inattention.
The estranged parents’ reaction?
This is why we can’t have nice things. Or nice kids.
Children need attention and nurturing and direction. AND respect for their parents. This whole “look what snowflake can teach you, you clueless parental imbecile” movement makes me want to wretch. Thank you media and experts!
When do they hold up the mirror to our EC to have them do a little role playing? I’d love to see their reaction (while they play a parent) to a child who behaves as they have.
The parents featured have young children. They are probably the same ages as some of our EC. Interesting isn’t it how under a microscope they are not nearly as perfect as they expected us to be?
And the crowning quote:
when we parents fail in the moment and find that anger has taken over, we can take a moment to step back and think about how we could have handled it better.You can say to your children, “Give me a few minutes so I can check myself,” said Fisher. “And then what … you’re teaching them (is) ‘Oh, it’s OK. I don’t have to fix this right now. I can step back.’ “
I’m going to re-write this in “[Her Name] Speak”:
“When we parents are dealing with obtuse whiny brats for the umpteenth time that day and find that they have chewed thru our final nerve, we can either take a moment to step toward the Chardonnay or over to said brats with palm up and out and in striking position of said brats’ hindquarters.
We can say to these miscreant misbehavers – Give me anymore crap and I will take you out and make another one who looks just like you!- And then what we are teaching them is the fear of God and respect (and fear of retribution and consequences of actions) and that it IS ok for moi, as the parent, not to put up with this crap right now. We can step back toward the wine….
A few notes:
Children need attention and nurturing and direction. AND respect for their parents.
Respect means never openly objecting to a parent’s behavior.
This whole “look what snowflake can teach you, you clueless parental imbecile” movement makes me want to wretch.
Radical misreading of everything except the first couple of paragraphs.
When do they hold up the mirror to our EC to have them do a little role playing?
“Oh, yeah? Well, if I have to do something unpleasant, they have to do something unpleasant.” That never worked when we got into a playground rumpus in third grade, but now that we’re all grown it’s totally legit.
I’d love to see their reaction (while they play a parent) to a child who behaves as they have.
Not only did I do the best I could with them, I did the best anyone could. They’re delusional if they think they can do better.
Interesting isn’t it how under a microscope they are not nearly as perfect as they expected us to be?
The fallacy of perfection: What they expected from us wasn’t just improvement, it was perfection. They think they can do better than us, which means they think they can be perfect. If they don’t succeed in being perfect, then they’ve failed completely, and they’ve failed as much as they say we failed.
I’m going to re-write this in “[Her Name] Speak”:
The idea that I should listen to my children is absurd and threatening. I must undermine it at length.
When we parents are dealing with obtuse whiny brats for the umpteenth time that day and find that they have chewed thru our final nerve,
Our behavior is justified. It’s the kids’ fault.
we can either take a moment to step toward the Chardonnay or over to said brats with palm up and out and in striking position of said brats’ hindquarters.
The two viable options are drinking and hitting. Taking time to process our behavior and think of a way that doesn’t involve either avoidance or threats paints us as weak.
And then what we are teaching them is the fear of God and respect (and fear of retribution and consequences of actions)
The parent is God. Fear is respect. Obedience is respect.
and that it IS ok for moi, as the parent, not to put up with this crap right now.
Double standards are respect. Your needs are crap. I don’t have to tend to your needs unless I feel like it.
We can step back toward the wine….
Good parenting is instilling fear in kids so they stop being so goddamned inconvenient. My chief failing as a parent is not teaching my children to be convenient enough. I compensate with fantasies in which I was even harder on them, which has the pleasant side effect of satisfying my need for retribution for their adulthood rejection of me.
I was serious about the only two options being avoidance or threats. In fact, after the threats I’ll need a little dose of avoidance to get through the day, so there’s really only one option: avoidance and threats.
Now that I’ve successfully ruled out other options via the Rule of Funny, we can all go back to congratulating ourselves for parenting either just right, or too nicely.
But damn, I wish our kids would tell us why they estranged from us.
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Oh, I saw that comment about striking your kids for expressing their opinions, and I was HORRIFIED. “Take you out”? “Make one just like you”? Is she really saying she would threaten to kill her child and make a replacement? I hope her children are able to stay far far away from that one, and that any grandchildren are well-protected from that sociopath (is there really any other conclusion?).
Oh and the others just thought it was so hi-larious. The name of that forum is irony itself.
I reached a place recently where I had developed some limited empathy, but between comments like this and the recent behavior of the toxic people in my life, that empathy has pretty much run dry.
It sounds like a threat along the lines of “I’m going to knock your head to a point and knock the point off,” but with the added twist of “You’re replaceable, so shape up or be shipped out” and the implication that the kid’s life is worthless to the parent unless the kid meets the parent’s expectations. Like a lot of dysfunctional statements, it packs a lot into a few words.
The juxtaposition of the joking physical threat and the real psychological threat is typical. You have to laugh it off because it’s so obviously not serious, but the tip of the dagger still slips through.
I wonder what they would say to people who DO parent thoughtfully, as the article suggests, and whose kids have few issues and are a joy to be around? I have a friend who is the best parent I’ve ever seen. Her sister is . . . not. Sister’s kids are older, and she keeps saying things like, “Wait until they turn 12, 13, 16…” and my friend’s kids hit those ages and continue to be their awesome selves.
They’d go off on all the reasons those methods wouldn’t have worked on their own kids. Happens all the time when a former member returns and tells them how she reconciled with her kids. Their own kids were too rebellious, too selfish, too wrong for any other methods to help.
It must be frustrating for your friend, watching her sister parent so badly and then turn around and tell her the bad results are inevitable. I hope she can be a help to her nieces and nephews. Sometimes just the validation that yes, your mother is doing a terrible job, you’re not imagining it, can do wonders.
There’s just so much anger and hostility toward their own children. I can’t imagine ever feeling like that toward my kids, but I’ve felt it from my own mother.
“But damn, I wish our kids would tell us why they estranged from us.” Yeah, I can’t wait to spend more time with the angry hostile people!
They always asked so mystified at being called angry and hostile. “Oh, but we’re always so supportive of each other in here, the echo chamber that reinforces that we’re all wonderful people and none of it is our fault. We’re not hostile. Our kids are just horrible entitled people that deserve a beating.”
Do they really not understand why their kids want nothing to do with them after postings stuff like that? Do you think that part of them knows why but just can’t admit it? Or do you think they are really clueless?
That’s the million-dollar question, innit? When they post things like this, I think they’re riding hard on the idea that they parented right, but their kid kidded wrong. Now they’re doing the right things to resolve the problem (like demonstrating their love by sending unwanted presents), but their kid is still kidding wrong (returning the packages to sender). They can’t make their kid kid right, they can only control their own actions, which means continuing to do the right thing regardless (finding another way to send gifts). They’re thoroughly defended against the idea that their own perspective isn’t the only or the right one.
I think it’s partly reflex, and partly defensiveness. They don’t automatically consider their children’s viewpoints. When they do try to see things from their kids’ perspective–a skill they usually have with other people–they see themselves so badly that they slam the door and refuse to open it again. On the rare occasion that they do try again, they don’t have the internal resources to process shame, so they tend to black out whatever insights they have, or process their insights only partway and then retreat, or simply break down. When they break down it turns into a scramble to make themselves feel better, which can mean either undermining their insights, or leaning on their victims to say it wasn’t that bad and they’re forgiven. Regardless of what path they take, afterward they think they’ve absorbed all the insights there are to absorb and they’ve suffered for it, so their part is done.
But their kid is still kidding wrong. Why is that?
Do you think there’s anything to the idea that some of them are actively seeking conflict? One of the last physical observations I had of my mother involved her deliberately and inexplicably setting a chaotic situation (with a high risk of harm!) in motion, and then sitting back and watching the havoc it caused with rapt attention. I received some reliable information recently regarding conduct by her that is not at all consistent with a genuine interest in reconciliation but instead seems motivated by a desire to start drama (again, with a very high risk of harm to me and my family). It is starting to appear to me now that she doesn’t make genuine connections, so “kidding right” wasn’t really an option for her kids because the ultimate goal seems to be generating chaos.
I do think there are some people who see life like a tv show – they like to see the drama in other lives, and who cares if they get hurt.
My own mom likes to needle people and then claim innocence and that she didn’t mean to do it. For her I feel like she can’t admit that she does that because then she has to admit her faults and they are too much to face. So she just pretends she didn’t realize it could be taken wrong. But I have told her at the airport that if TSA pulls her away I was not going to wait for her and I would board the plane alone. She was able to keep her mouth shut so I think there is some control.
My mother acts like a clueless child whenever called on anything. I used to try to make sense of it, but I can’t find much motivation other than she thrives on conflict and drama. She used to have control over it and could hide what she was doing, but the last time I saw her, she was pretty dissociated. No boundaries and no real ability to disguise her behavior (although she still lies about it, just not well). The first crazy incident, both my daughter and I witnessed. The latest thing — well, there was no reason for her to think I wouldn’t find out. In fact, if her plans had come to fruition, her part in it would have been right out in the open so keeping it concealed was not even in the thought process. I just don’t get it. I don’t know what they get out of it. A thrill? A sense of superiority? In any case, I can’t see how she doesn’t know that what she’s doing is harmful, as harm (and any resulting drama and chaos) seems to be the intent.
My mother sought conflict when she was unhappy. I think how it worked was that she had a bad feeling about something, and she couldn’t stand that, so she’d create a big drama about something and then be satisfied that the drama was what was causing her bad feelings – and because the drama was with me or my dad, then she could blame us for it. It meant that as you say, “kidding right” wasn’t an option, as she had bad feelings, and she needed someone to take them out on. When she was in a mood like that there was no escaping it, you were going to get a bollocking for something, it was just a matter of what. I relaxed a lot, as a teenager, once I realised that, and changed my survival strategy – instead of trying to be the perfect kid I just started to be an absent kid, and took up lots of worthy hobbies that kept me out of her way.
As an adult, in the years leading up to NC she tried to create drama with me many times and as I didn’t rise to the bait, it was easier to see how it operated. When she came to our house to visit she’d often break things and not say anything, and sometimes stole things, and I think the idea was that you were supposed to realise and say something and then there would be a shitstorm and she could have fun shouting at people and being hard done by. We’d just replace whatever she’d broken or stolen and not say anything, which must have been quite frustrating for her. In the end, as that wasn’t working, she tried a little bit of triangulation between me and my husband over how he was looking after our kids. That was the end, for us – it prompted the NC.
Ooooh, yeah. Breaking things. We found a lot of broken things in the house while my mother was staying there. It was bizarre and we didn’t know what to make of it. What you say seems plausible — that she was looking for confrontation. Since no one saw her, she could deny and feign offense, thereby escalating the conflict. We just never mentioned it, thinking maybe it was a sign of dementia or clumsiness or something. However, we moved recently and we were surprised by all the broken things, many of them in places where they could not just simply break without someone doing it (collectibles on decorative shelves, for example).
She tried to triangulate between me and my husband also. He called her on it and she left. That was NC for us, and the latest bit means she won’t ever be allowed to darken our doorsteps again. She went too far (and I don’t know how she couldn’t recognize that, but she continued to attempt contact after doing it — again, with no expectation I wouldn’t find out about it).
I don’t know whether mine did it because she felt bad about things or just because she enjoyed watching people be in pain. Maybe that absolved her own pain in some way? I don’t know.
Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s always interesting to see that there are patterns.
My NC parent has borderline personality disorder. One of the hallmarks is splitting and idealization and devaluation. So yes, she creates drama as a way to take me off the pedestal she has placed me on during the idealization phase.
The other thing is that people with Cluster B personality disorders often engage in high-risk behavior: reckless driving, promiscuity, substance abuse, eating disorders and more. Those high-risk behaviors have an unintended side-effect of bringing the drama.
That’s what I struggle with as well – what is the level of awareness, and of control over their own feelings & behavior? It’s impossible to know I guess. And increasingly, to me, it doesn’t even matter. The words & actions are what matter – the effect on me is the same no matter what the intention behind them is.
Really, it is quite pleasant to spend time with people who think you’re awesome. People who think you don’t quite meet their expectations and are constantly dropping “hints” & guilt trips, pouting & sulking & complaining – well that just sucks & I can’t get away fast enough.
That’s what it comes down to. It’s seductive to try to reason with them–that’s my own personal and perennial windmill to tilt at–but if they’re not going to change, then does it matter why they do what they do? It doesn’t matter if the boulder fell or was pushed, just get out of its way.
“It doesn’t matter if the boulder fell or was pushed, just get out of its way.”
It took me 50 years to figure that out & to give myself permission to step out of the way. Strangely enough, my anxiety levels are significantly lower without a falling boulder over my head!
I don’t think they really do have the skill of looking at things from another person’s perspective. i think they can do a (sometimes) plausible impression of it by superimposing how they think they would feel in the other person’s position, which will work some of the time with people that are reasonably similar to them and who they aren’t in a close relationship with. But in the situation of a close familial bond with an adult child who does not share their value system it hits the buffers very quickly.
Your line about the kid ‘kidding wrong’ is spot on, I think. And ‘kidding wrong’ is defined as saying or doing anything that makes the parent feel bad about themselves, regardless of whether or not the parent may have actually done something that they should reasonably feel bad about. What these parents require is an adult child who makes them feel good about themselves, and any failure to supply that is perceived as hostility, transgression, attack, and justifies pretty much any reaction the parent chooses to mete out.
“What these parents require is an adult child who makes them feel good about themselves, and any failure to supply that is perceived as hostility, transgression, attack, and justifies pretty much any reaction the parent chooses to mete out.”
Include your sister and brother for additional estrangements, but find great solace in that your kid has re-engaged. Mid-fifties and grandmother am I.
DDC – I do not understand your message – can you clarify?
lML, sorry for the cloudy content. It’s very hard to write. I was the adult child used to make a parent feel good, from a teenager up to my 50’s. Since abandoning the mother-ship, my siblings have estranged from me. For about two years, so did my only kid, a 30+ year old with a pre-k kid. The above quote hit home with me, though I’ve been reading for quite awhile. Three cheers to Issendai from me, because understanding ‘why’ has been a huge help.
Hi DDC,
I’m glad that things are working out with your kid. If you feel comfortable sharing, I would be interested in hearing more about your situation. It’s not often that we can share experiences with someone that has been the estranged parent. FWIW, it seems like a lot of estranged parents are estranged children too.
Do you think your estrangement from your child had to do with your estrangement from your parent(s)? Or do you think it was because of behaviors you acquired as a result of your upbringing?
Again, only if you feel comfortable. I am genuinely pleased for you that you are able to work on things with your child and are able to have a relationship.
I’d like to share more if it may help others, but feel afraid that somehow I’ll be ‘found out’, (the big taboo of saying what’s not ok in the family combines with stalking by some family whom are far better cyber-hunters).
*The answer is yes to both of your questions. Estrangement from my kid was directly related to my second, final estrangement from my mother. Years of being mother’s rescuer, enabler, co-parent, enmeshed, ‘golden-scapegoat’ role player, and the list could go longer = my past very much influenced my thinking and choices.
Oh, definitely. I understand and I wouldn’t want you to risk that. Welcome, and I hope you find this site helpful. In any case, what you have said has been helpful to my understanding.
Thanks DDC – I understand now! It sounds like you have had a rough time of it – glad you found this site. I too have found it quite helpful.
Terrorizing and terrifying your kids into compliance is a Parenting Strategy/Skill Set shared by all abusers.
The recurrent comparisons between their behavior as adults and the behavior of children as they developed through the various stages of normal Childhood Growth and Development is as telling as it is chilling: You frustrate/anger etc. me and I’ll show YOU.
Because kids are simply recalcitrant mini adults.
Or television sets whose poor reception can be ameliorated by slapping the shit out of the top and sides of it until it “works.”
“When do they hold up the mirror to our EC to have them do a little role playing?
“Oh, yeah? Well, if I have to do something unpleasant, they have to do something unpleasant.” That never worked when we got into a playground rumpus in third grade, but now that we’re all grown it’s totally legit.”
This is literally how my mother reacts to any fork of criticism or feedback. By pushing it back onto me and my perceived flaws or actions. So utterly pathetic and childish and exhausting.