Fragmented stories, missing bridges
|A recent post on an estranged parents’ forum ran down a list of things the member’s son had done to her and her husband since his wedding. It ended with a realization that, from the outside, is both touching and tragic:
For the first time—ever—I felt like it was OKAY that I didn’t have to ever talk to my ES again and that it was OKAY that it felt like a huge boulder had just been lifted off of my heart. It not only felt “okay,” it felt freakin’ awesome! Woo Hoo! My question is, just how long does your list have to be before you give YOURSELF permission to be happy again?
It’s awful that she felt she couldn’t let go of her son, no matter how he treated her. It prolonged both her pain and her son’s. No one should feel they have to force themselves to stay in contact with someone who keeps hurting them, regardless of the other person’s motives and regardless of family ties. Life is too short. Take care of yourself.
There’s an essay in there about what it means that people feel compelled to chase their estranged children, and what can be done to help the situation all around. Unfortunately, I’m not the person to write that essay. Instead, I want to talk about the list of things the member’s son did from an analytical standpoint.
This is the list, bulleted and lightly edited:
- I wasn’t invited to any of the four wedding showers.
- I was told that if I asked the wedding photographer to take any pictures that weren’t already on the DIL’s list of approved pictures, the answer would be, “No!”
- We were only allowed to visit (from out of state) once a year and it was always awkward and, later, critiqued via reprimand email.
- After we’d drive 12 hours to see ES and his family, our visits were timed, were always at a restaurant and we’d be told when we were “done” and told that we could fill the rest of our vacation time in with other family or friends because our visit with them had ended. I’d cry the entire way home.
- [W]e were told NOT to refer to [the granddaughter] as being shy (as she hid behind her mother), not to look her in the eyes, not to talk to her unless she talked to us first and never, ever to touch her because “she doesn’t like being touched.”
- When we let ES and his wife know we were moving back to the same town as them, we were cut off altogether and were sent a series of blistering emails with the most hurtful, vile things to say to anyone, much less parents and were told that we were now cut off altogether and we’d never be allowed to see our granddaughter.
Lots of red flags here:
- By the wedding, the situation was already so bad that she was chilled out of preparations.
- There must have been an issue with her and photographs for her to be issued a direct warning about making requests of the wedding photographer; and it must have been a significant issue for her to remember it–in detail–in a list that covered at least eight years and painted most issues with a broad brush.
- After the wedding the son kept contact to a single annual meeting, at a neutral public location, with a strict time limit. Standard procedure for dealing with family when shit has gotten really, truly bad.
- Something about how she and her husband interacted with the granddaughter was so off that the parents laid down strict, detailed rules for contact with her.
Is anyone surprised that the son blew up when the parents announced they were moving to his town?
What is surprising is that the member didn’t realize moving to her son’s town would destroy the relationship. After eight years of having contact doled out to her once a year in a hermetically sealed nugget, she hadn’t internalized that her son didn’t want to see her.
Another member’s reply displays the same lack of insight:
[My son] does not answer texts, he has blocked me from his email, and his phone.
His girlfriend will respond to my texts, but it seems like she has the control over him now. I haven’t seen or talked to him in almost 3 years. He had told me he doesn’t need me anymore, and I am not to come by their apartment, which is right around the corner from me.
He also told me he will never see me again.
He would Never invite me to anything.
The order is telling. The second member’s son has refused to speak to her for three years, but she needs to be told separately that she can’t come to his apartment. After she says her son will never see her again, she adds that he would never invite her to anything–presumably musing on how he treated her before he cut her off. Why would she expect him to send her invitations if he wasn’t speaking to her? She doesn’t seem to connect the details into a coherent picture of the relationship, even one as simple as “My son has cut me off.”
The first member has a similarly fragmented view of the relationship. The chill that had already set in by the time of the wedding didn’t make the chill after the wedding any more comprehensible. The chill after the wedding didn’t make the restrictions on meeting her granddaughter any more comprehensible. Eight years of unrelenting freeze didn’t shed any light on why moving to her son’s town was a deal-breaker.
At the end of the list, the first member mused on how the estrangement came to be in classic Missing Missing Reasons style:
We’ve never had raised voices between us, there was never a “moment” you could pinpoint to explain this estrangement, and we’ve never responded in kind to any of these hateful emails they’ve sent us over the years.
The post contains instance after instance in which the son and his wife explained what the problem was, or where you can see the outlines of an explanation. They sent emails after visits. They sent multiple emails when they cut the member off. They gave the member specific, detailed instructions about the wedding photographer and the granddaughter that must have come with an explanation, or that happened so soon after an incident that the timing itself was the explanation.
And yet the member described the search for an explanation as a “tornado spinning in [her] head”. She had no ability to turn her own life into a coherent narrative.
Is she always like this? Of course not. The ability to see others’ perspectives–the missing link in her thought process–is a later-developing skill that shuts off when people feel threatened; and while healthy peoples’ threat thresholds are high, abusive upbringings and personality disorders can drop the threshold so low, an ant would trip over it. The threat threshold is intimately bound to a child’s earliest attachments, so any relationship that pings the mother-child bond–in either direction–garners an outsized reaction. That’s why people who deal with their friends and coworkers with admirable maturity can lose all perspective with their children. Both members I’ve quoted are no doubt calm, rational people with their neighbors, their officemates, their mail carriers. They plumb the depths of madness the moment their thoughts turn to their kids.
And they have no idea they’re doing it.
There’s no sensor in the brain that trips when your insight shorts out. As far as your mind is concerned, it’s always in tip-top shape. (If anything, it takes more insight to realize you’re short on insight.) Even when your insight levels pitch up and down like a rowboat in a storm, your brain thinks it’s smooth sailing. Live that way long enough, and you develop defenses for those moments when your insight levels rise high enough for you to notice just how nuts you are: I was angry, you made me do it, I deserve better, I was justified, it’s all your fault.
So you do selfish things because you’re desperate, then you fail to see how you’ve affected the people around you because you can’t see the world from their angle. You’ve lost your grip on cause and effect. Your relationships don’t make sense. Is it you? No, it’s not you. You’re fine. It’s the other people. You’re even more desperate. You do more selfish things.
You get a few gulps of air. Your head clears. You try to explain the problem to a third party, someone calm and soothing. You realize that the details make you sound guilty. Smooth them over. Telling the story in order sounds bad. Stir up the order of events. Skip the ones where you look bad because other people made you so angry that you acted out of character. The third party asks you a question, something that hints that maybe you should be ashamed, you should be guilty, you are guilty, you are a thing to be ashamed of, feel shame, feel shame, fight or the shame will destroy you, fight or you aren’t worth living, shame erases you don’t let shame erase you erase the thing that’s trying to erase you erase it erase it erase it or be shame
…And nothing ever gets better. But the pain of estrangement is still better than the shame.
That doesn’t mean people who think this way can’t stay centered long enough to feel shame. They do feel shame–lots of it. More than normal people. If shame is sugar, these people are diabetics, unable to metabolize even normal levels of shame. It sloshes around their system, damaging everything it touches, washing out slowly and through the wrong channels, never giving the sufferer the benefit of having ingested it. But a lifetime of shame avoidance makes people do lots of shameful things, so eventually their own life stories are an all-you-can-eat dessert buffet. The first member circles the buffet endlessly, trying to figure out why her son cut her off, but she can’t swallow the memories that would explain it any more than a diabetic could swallow three pieces of pie, a whole cake, and half a box of mints.
Better to leave each part of the story on its own separate plate.
Reading estranged parents forums is an interesting loop to watch.
My estranged child is so cruel and abusive and controlling. Despite this, I still desperately want and need and will tirelessly work towards a relationship with them. Why do I so desperately want a relationship with them despite their cruel and abusive nature? Why, of course because I’m just too gosh darn loving! Why would such a loving person as myself go on for paragraph after paragraph in post after post wishing pain and suffering on people they claim to love? Well because I’m just so hurt because of that cruel, abusive and controlling child, of course!
But, of course, even when they do slip and reveal that the actual reason they want a relationship with their child is because of massive, unhealthy amounts of emotional labor their child was performing for them, they just use it as an excuse to bemoan how happy and perfect and wonderful their relationship was before that darn alienating father or harpy daughter in law came along.
I think this analysis is bang on about a lot of them. But what do you make of the ones who don’t feel shame? Not the BPD or the lesser NPDs, but the full-on NPDs and APDs? The ones who don’t see other people as people and therefore never feel shame about the terrible ways they treat them?
There was a time in my teens when my mother, diagnosed by my therapist w/ APD in absentia, was telling me about all of the terrible reasons my mother hates me, and ended with “you didn’t even take care of me when my father died!” I was 14 when my grandfather died. At this point in the conversation I got angry, told her she was the mother and I was the kid and she was supposed to be taking care of me. And she looked, actually, mostly shocked, as if it had never occurred to her that she might have obligations to me. I don’t think she has ever felt shame about anything she’s done, to me or anyone else (and there’s a long list). She’ll describe things she’s done that are so transparently awful to audiences without registering it at all, without registering the stunned and disbelieving silence of that audience. (Bragging to us all once about what a great manager she was at the office because when she noticed that all of her staff were shivering, wearing coats and mittens, in the meeting room she offered to turn up the heat, even though you know “most staff are too terrified of their managers to do that!” I am a manager; I have lots of experience with freezing cold meeting rooms; my staff and I joke together about it and things have never been so bad that they have shivered in discomfort rather than even mention it to me. Demanding, while my Dad was dying, that I–single mom with disabled kid–take time off work to take care of my Dad so she wouldn’t have to, then furthermore requesting that I sew coats for her rescue chickens; and when I said no, to both, she cut me off to “punish me.” None of this was private; all was in front of an audience.)
I mean, the same patterns of “doing the awful thing and not connecting it to the outcome” are there; it’s just that in her mind the outcome is an independently awful thing I’ve done that she’s punishing me for, and does not feel any shame about, and no hesitation in describing to third parties. I feel like I’m not describing this well because her narrative is obviously still crazy and full of holes, but the holes it’s full of aren’t, “I don’t want people to think I am bad so I will restructure this story to elide things that are unflattering to me,” it’s “I have no conception of other people as independent beings that have rights so of course I’m going to punish any one of them for saying no to me about anything whatsoever; who could have a problem with that?”
(She’d never go on one of these forums; because I’m not a person to her, and certainly not a daughter to her, and she is punishing me for saying no, she therefore doesn’t miss me and isn’t sad.)
The metabolism of shame/sugar analogy is brilliant for many of these parents and it fits many of them. But for my mother and people like her, it’s more like the shame/sugar is immediately converted to protein in the bloodstream.
Cross posted-yep, exactly my take on the role of shame and it’s complete absence in this cohort group. In order to feel shame necessitates having a conscience. Lack of such is the defining characteristic of psychopathology. Without conscience there is no shame. Further, that lack of conscience also indicates a lack of empathy. Without empathy, it is extraordinarily easy to inflict horrific pain on another and this behavior will be rationalized in a variety of ways including “they deserved it,” “they hurt me first” and allllll the minimizing, rationalizing, denial etc. evident in this cohort.
After all, if their offspring physically survived to adulthood they were “brilliant” parents.
Yes, absolutely.
I wonder if this means that the forum parents, as terrible as they are, are on some level more functional than the non-forum EPs. After all they have enough understanding of people, of the situation, and enough desire for connection to be able to register how this looks to other people and to feel distress at the absence of the ACs. Whereas with the ones like my mother–she doesn’t love me, she doesn’t miss me, she’s just pissed off that I’m not there to provide her with care.
Once a year she’ll send my daughter some cards, and it’s the most chilling thing. There’s no “I’m sorry” of course, but there’s also no “I miss you” or “I wish I could hear how you’re doing” or “How’s school?” It’s just a card, with a “love grandma,” and a check. After all the hurt she’s put both of us through, none of it registers–there’s no sign she even has the concept that my daughter *could* be upset at her, not even a sign that she realizes my daughter isn’t just a toy to be “grandma” for but a person who has things to say and life experiences when she’s not around. Not a person but a thing she can buy a relationship with with an annual check.
Not trying to unload in Issendai’s comments section, but the post has started me looking through memories and experiences to see if I can find any trace of shame. And I can’t. There’s just this bone-chilling lack of shame–because shame would mean that she understands there are social bonds which can be ruptured by her actions.
Another EP classic. I am pleased but disturbed the first poster states they experienced a lightening of their load/feel “happy” since the estrangement has been formalized-and now *blame* can be cleanly and firmly attributed to their AC. Plausible Deniability regardless of it’s transparency is now embedded in a reality spun, polished and presented as “proof” of the offspring’s irrational rejection of the poor, persecuted EPs.
Nonetheless, she’s momentarily riding a crest that will inevitably lead to a trough. Uncertainty is a very challenging mental state for any human being to reside within indefinitely. This doubling down on tactics that have historically led to limited contact-or any-is so common, it’s as if forcing some kind of “confrontation” is a means to alleviate the uncertainty and it’s associated feelings with wholly self-defeating tactics-IF the goal truly is Reconciliation. In my experience it’s motivated by a deeply self absorbed “gimme NOW” as opposed to any external stimuli: Why now would they decide to move to the son and DIL’s town? What’s changed after eight years? The use of “tornado” to describe her inner world is revealing and a very accurate description of a incredible degree of self-absorption: The tornado indiscriminately sucks up all in it’s path into a swirling vortex of unrelated “things” and leaves behind a devastated landscape.
I’m concerned this person is at risk for suicidality in the coming weeks/months. Despite the crowing, despite the temporary alleviation of uncertainty the reality is this poster forced an outcome she claimed she didn’t want and which was *not within her authority.* OUCH. This is a temporary respite in the hostilities; she ain’t done yet.
I have a different opinion of the role of shame with this population but I’m interested to hear from other posters first.
Thanks!
What’s your idea about the role of shame? I’m curious
My (divorced) parents both are described to a t here, except that they manage to have enough self-knowledge and theory of mind to realize /in retrospect/ that they messed up. But then they do the same damn thing again whenever they feel criticized the tiniest amount by someone close to them, even if they weren’t actually being criticized. Guess whom they feel is closest to them, and therefore gets the worst of it? When they realize what happened, my mother tries to justify it because she was tense over something else, and my father tries to buy me stuff. Lather, rinse, repeat.
All their friends they’re not super close to think they’re the best people on earth. My mother has no friends she’s super close to — the only person she was really close to was me, and that’s not the case any more. Which means we don’t have any friction any more. It’s been entirely her decision to keep people at arm’s length, and I think it was a conscious one. She can’t be close to people without either becoming a doormat or making them responsible for her emotional life, so being distant is probably healthiest for her and the people around her.
My father does have friends he’s very close to, and one of them recently said, “you can’t believe anything he says.” This is because my father lies to try to avoid being embarrassed, and he’s embarrassed by anything that shows he’s not completely perfect and in control at all times. Since his health is utterly wrecked, he has to lie constantly these days.
I’m not estranged from my parents, though it’s been close a few times with my father, who has leaned on me hard emotionally since I was about 12. My mother did the same from when I was a small child to when I was about 20. (Being parentified separately by both parents while they were still married is something I’ve never been able to find resources about.) And they both grew up in abusive households, though neither of them acknowledges the whole of it.
I have my own problems with shame and criticism. For a long time, it did feel like an attack on my very self — like I wasn’t allowed to exist at all as an individual, but only as a support to others. It didn’t help that I unconsciously sought out relationships with people who would put me in that position since it’s what I was used to. It took hard work to get over that. But my fleas aren’t as virulent as my parents’, whose in turn are not as bad as their parents’.
I often wonder why shame is so unbearable for so many people, self formerly included. Even though I used to feel that way and don’t any more, I don’t have a ton of insight into why it happens. It does feel like the whole world is coming apart and you can’t figure out how or why. So you throw everything you can at it to try to make it — whatever it is — stop. And remembering exactly what happened afterward is difficult because it was just a blur of pain and terror.
This makes shame a powerful tool for abusers, too.
The thing about specifically banning referring to the granddaughter as “shy” puts me in mind of a pattern of insistently pressing a particular reframing of something in a way that seems superficially innocuous but serves some hidden agenda.
Considering the underlying context, it’s not so hard to imagine that the granddaughter might be specifically afraid of the poster — unfamiliarity could be sufficient, and it’s not hard to imagine worse — and that the poster was pressing “LOOK SHE’S SO SHY ISN’T SHE SHY SHE IS SHY SO SHY SHE IS SHY” to drown out the other, less acceptable, narrative.
That sort of thing is something my folks did a fair bit of, and it’s… incredibly aggravating.
Yes, yes, yes! And it’s invalidating as hell. Yeesch, I’m sorry, Tinker. It’s a covert means of ensuring you know your “role” in the family and it doesn’t matter if it’s even remotely accurate or how old you get, that label once bestowed is now set in stone
It’s also a way of poking, poking, poking until you finally get
angry and tell them again please stop you’re not this or that.
And we all know where that’s going, cue “too sensitive,” “can’t take a joke,” etc.
What doesn’t happen: They stop.
The quickest way to *not* get what you need is to ask for it directly. Even when they ask you repeatedly what you want/need, they ensure it won’t happen: They will not be denied that delicious rush they get from watching your disappointment. Extra sadistic points for demanding you thank them profusely for what ever they decided was what you *told them.* They’re pros at the Guilded Turd “gift.”
Glad you’re staying right where you are this year. Your pilgrimages to the homestead must have felt like ”Faammiilly” waterboarding at best.
The “Guilded Turd” is such a good name for it. My mother’s favorite game was to ask me what I really, really wanted, and then buy it for one of my siblings. Usually because it was not “my place” in the family. “I know you asked for a set of watercolor pencils, but your sister is really the one with artistic talent” “I know you asked for a PlayStation, but your brother is really the one who will use it the most, and besides, he doesn’t enjoy reading as much as you do” (she enjoyed bragging to everyone that I was a very smart kid who only ever asked for books and enjoyed reading all of the time, which was mostly true, but I also learned that if I asked for anything else, I wasn’t likely to get it, and then I would get random books I didn’t really want to read)
Not just parents. On moving in with my brother many years ago, he asks me do I want a new carpet in the room and for it be plastered. My answer was no, I just need to quiet comfortable room to sleep in after mu nights shifts. Guess what got done. So he wasn’t asking, but telling me under the guise of a question.
His gf at the time wasn’t happy with me staying, he neglected to tell me that little gem. I moved out after a month due to the unpleasantness of her behaviour but apparently I should have stayed and tolerated it. Took him 3 hours over text arguing to admit that she never wanted me there.
I get a distinct vibe, though it may be somewhat shaded by my own experiences, that the poster’s granddaughter may be on the autism spectrum, given the directions about verbal communication and eye contact. And also that “shy” may have been the poster’s go-to word for invalidating and attempting to rewrite that fact, which had happened enough times that the DIL had to directly set the boundary to not refer to the child as such.
I got that vibe too, with the shyness and the comment that she doesn’t like to be touched. In any case, the child seems to have needs that the parents are trying to ensure are met and the grandparents don’t respect that.
Even in situations that really are innocuous, labeling kids to their faces can be hurtful. My kid is self-conscious about people saying “you are TALL OMG you’re SO TALL HOW TALL ARE YOU ARE YOU TALLER THAN YOUR MOTHER” etc. Most people are well-meaning and just trying to make conversation, and it’s bothersome even so. I can easily see where an actual character or personality trait could hurt a person’s feelings, whether true or not, having it thrown in your face. Maybe this kid is shy or maybe she isn’t, but it’s just not appropriate to get all up in a child’s business like that, ESPECIALLY after being asked not to.
I just gotta say I LOVE the shame/diabetes analogy. It describes that dynamic so well. I’m sure not all abusive people fall into that category (such as the mother described in an earlier comment who seems to lack a concept of shame entirely) but for some it’s just so spot-on.
I can’t help but notice that everything in that letter that the poster’s son “did to her” were not done TO her at all. He took control of his own parenting, his own wedding planning, his own living situation, his own time management, his own interaction with the parents. Apart from the critical emails after visits, he didn’t do anything TO her at all. And yet, she sees him exercising his agency within his own life as an attack on her. It makes it so clear that she truly doesn’t have appropriate identity distinctions between herself and her son.
I have just discovered all of issendai’s work on this topic and just want to express my great appreciation. There is SO much insight here, and so well organized, too, on the dynamics of family abuse and dysfunction. I too am fascinated by the psychology of denial in parents who abuse. I got here via the recent New York Times article on family estrangement – one of the commenters recommended it. Thank you again! I have much more reading to do here. It is fascinating, in a sort of dreadful way, to recognize so many of the types of things my parents said and did, and so many of the same patterns. It’s the denial, the UNCOMPREHENDING DISBELIEF, and often almost monolithic lack of self-awareness that makes everything so, so much worse.
It seems unfair to both adult child and parent to simply throw people away without a warning. Better to let them know that you no longer feel you can maintain contact unless they can change a bit, and then to offer to talk.
The past is not prologue,; people do change and gain insight. But when small children see their parents simply cut off the grandparents, will they think twice when they grow up? Probably not.
We need a greater emphasis on relationships and how to maintain, transform and repair them.
“Fair’ is not “Equal.” Further, the issue is not some kind of minor communication problem or the reality the parent needs to “change a bit.” However, it is typical of Estranged Parents to so minimize their abusive behavior demonstrated over decades to “might have made a few (unspecified) mistakes” in a transparent effort to reduce their abuse to what it is NOT. Bear in mind, no adult is ever required to explain their decisions to another in any event.
The concept an AC has never attempted to open a dialog with their abusive parents is hardly novel: I referred to Franz Kafka’s Letter to His Father in another post. Issendai has a post dedicated to this very topic, “Why don’t Estranged children say…” Read it. Your ignorance on this topic is as obvious as your status as an Estranged Parent, hardly an objective bystander. Estranged Adults do not “throw away” their parents: They walk away after decades spent in futile attempts to remediate the relationship with the parent. Your use of the highly emotionally charged “thrown away” pro forma line serves your Professional Victimhood poorly: It is neither original nor successful. It simply makes you look foolish.
The futility of repeatedly engaging another Adult who is clinging so tightly to their “Need to Be Right Rather Than Be Reasonable” is what has resulted in you and others just like you Estranged and beating that same ol’ empty “Karma’s Gonna Git You” Fear Mongering directed towards their children. Somehow that same concept of “karma” doesn’t apply to you and the reality your “karma” was your adult children estranging you because of your abusive behavior.
Actually our children thank us parents for protecting them from a known threat: Abusers/EPs are a known threat regardless of the label. When the abuse/threat is homegrown, we ensure our children will never experience what we have-without DNA Exemptions or Exceptions. When it comes to Character, indeed the past-be it five minutes ago or five years ago-is prologue: Abusers abuse. That’s who they are and that’s what they do. My children are not guinea pigs for known abusers to attempt to practice temporary prosocial behavior.
Defacto, EPs “threw away” their loving, innocent children long ago. ACs have finally accepted Reality.
EPs should be grateful to be rid of their terminally defective ACs-forever.
(cheers)
First of all, you’re right.
Second of all, whoever wrote the comment about throwing people away without any warning either didn’t read Issendai’s post, or didn’t comprehend it. It SPECIFICALLY points out how the son gave warning after warning, how the mother saw the warnings well enough to list them years later, and how he ended contact because she failed to take them seriously.
Third of all, that last paragraph about small children growing up to cut off their parents just because they saw their parents stop talking to their grandparents is revealing. Apparently adult children don’t estrange because their relationship with their parents is toxic; they estrange just because someone gave them the idea that they could, with no connection to whether or not they actually like their parents.
Either that or the commenter can’t picture a parent-child relationship where the child enjoys the contact and isn’t looking for permission to end it.
My child is quite frightened of my mother, honestly, and doesn’t question at all the lack of contact. My mother not only exhibited abusive, erratic, and bizarre behaviors in full view of my child (including trying to kill family pets, and perhaps succeeding with one that disappeared), but she then tried to have my child removed from my home when I required her to get psych assistance to continue contact. It was unsuccessful of course, because her accusations were invented whole cloth, but it did have the final result of ensuring that my child felt entirely betrayed and certain that grandmother is a vindictive liar. So, no, I’m not really worried about my child seeing their grandparent “simply cut off.” Protecting my child from dangerous people is what I’m supposed to do as a parent.
Most EC have given their parent plenty of warning and tried to make it work by setting boundaries, etc. The cutting off happens after other avenues haven’t worked. Of course the parent usually “conveniently” forgets that. See: “The Missing Missing Reasons”.
If the EC is working hard to break the cycle with their own children, it’s highly unlikely that they will be “cut off” in the same way. E.g. they will have a functional relationship with their own children.
I love every word of this post and every comment. Analyzing abusive parents’ perspectives is amazing.
Thinking more thoroughly about this, I think putting “she doesn’t like being touched” in quotation marks tells you a great deal about the dynamic. It completely changes the meaning of the sentence. If the child REALLY didn’t like being touched, then OF COURSE the grandmother shouldn’t touch her, and OF COURSE the parents should step in and intervene if the grandmother tries to touch her anyway. Putting it in quotation marks makes the parents sound inept and the grandmother sound like she’s in the right, where she clearly wouldn’t be otherwise. What a terrible situation.
Dear Issendai,
You helped me build a bridge, so I hope this is an appropriate comment after your thoughts on missing bridges.
I was an estranged mother. My daughter and I now see each other frequently and we agree that our relationship is now good for both of us. Relationships always need tending, just as gardens do, but we are both gardeners and watch over the garden of our relationship, to make sure nothing lacks water or is under attack by aphids, and that it blooms, because it is important to us. (I checked this paragraph with my daughter and she says, “Yep.”)
I want to thank you for your essay Down the Rabbit Hole and your other insightful comments. I found Rabbit Hole by luck one day while fleeing in frustration from an estranged mother’s forum I had joined, after visiting and leaving other estranged parent forums. I got more help from you than I found in any forum or self-help book, and realized I needed to be listening to estranged adult children instead of being in a group-think echo chamber.
I already knew how I felt and what I thought. I needed to understand things from my daughter’s perspective. I didn’t need an echo chamber to reinforce useless paradigms. After reading your work, I tuned into Joshua Coleman, as you suggested, but more importantly, I sought out as much advice from estranged adult children as I could get. I took what seemed pertinent to our situation and applied it with humility. Worked for me!
I’ve thought a lot about your writing on estranged parent forums. When parents have their perceptions validated by twenty or thirty people on a forum, who they have come to think of as friends, and are told over and over by them, by the media, by people with “credentials” and “expertise” that their children are spoiled narcissists with an exaggerated sense of entitlement, it doesn’t help encourage positive change. Some of those forums are very tightly moderated, and comments that fall outside the site owner’s parameters never see the light of day.
As President Obama urged recently, we need to get out of our bubbles.
Thanks again and very best wishes from my family.
Best wishes to you and your family, Mrs. T, from an estranged adult child. I am very happy that you were able to listen and to work things out with your daughter. I’m sure that many of us here wish that our parents could follow your example. I have looked at some of the parent forums, and have seen what you describe. I am glad that you were able to look beyond it.
Yes, there are a few people who can see beyond their noses and make amends. I, on the other hand will now never be able to have any contact with my parents or siblings. The first half due to death and the latter because they can no longer set the record straight with the first.
Both of my parents are gone and I no longer have any chance at reconciling with them over the physical abuse that i endured while growing up. Both parents, mainly father, participated. Not just spankings or hair pulling, but actual full on beatings. Closed fists to the face, bruises on my back and legs that I had to hide because my parents had a reputation to uphold.
I was branded as a liar by my father and the only people who can set the record straight with him is my siblings. Doesn’t matter anymore since he is no longer here. Henceforth, I no longer have siblings because they failed to do what was right before our father died.
I would have loved to be able to at least say good bye, but it was not meant to be. Now one sibling desires contact with me. With their action, or lack there of, i do not see the reason for contact of any kind.
Not every relationship can be perfect but it can survive with a little effort. We all have two ears and one mouth and they should be used in that order.
https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/8k3tne/my_older_son_m30_ghosted_me_m52/
If the thread gets deleted later on – I wayback’d it, so the original post can be found. Issendai, this seems related. Here we got a story by an estranged parent, one with a legitimately tragic basis, and… comments seem to be revealing a lot of missing pieces to it. What do you make of it?
https://web.archive.org/web/20180517160615/https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/8k3tne/my_older_son_m30_ghosted_me_m52/
Here’s the saved page. Two things jump out:
– He didn’t mention his wife or young daughter.
– He took a request to clarify that as an _insult_.
Dear Prudence just ran a question from and estranged parent, although she didn’t call herself that, yet.
Dear Prudence,
Our 19-year-old daughter decided to ghost us. She goes to college eight hours away from our home. We set her up in a dorm, paid her tuition, sent her money, and talked to her almost every day. After she complained about her roommates, we agreed she could move to a more independent-style dorm the next year. She then told us she was staying at school for a summer internship (turning down a good internship in our hometown to do so). When we traveled with her siblings to surprise her for her birthday, we were shocked to find out that she did not live at the address she gave us. After a number of calls, she finally told us she had moved out and started living with a guy she met at a coffee shop near campus. We took her to dinner and said we wanted her to stay safe and focus on finishing college. We tried not to show our anger and disappointment, but she refused to tell us anything about the guy—not even his last name.
She said she would continue school and would work to pay her share of the rent. We tried to talk to her about her options and not rushing into adult responsibilities. She agreed to come home after her internship and spend two weeks with us. That was a year ago. Since then, she’s taken all the money we ever gave her out of her bank account. We had to cancel her credit card after she maxed it out. She doesn’t speak to any of us, even her old and ailing grandparents. We all call and text her almost weekly, but the only time she ever responded was a message about her health insurance (we are still paying for her health insurance and cellphone).
For me, her silence is painful, being her mother. I cannot imagine what I, her father, or any of us did for her to callously disconnect from her family. When people ask me how she is doing, all I can say is she’s well, and then I want to sit somewhere and cry. We saw on Facebook that her boyfriend is 26, not in school, and works at a hardware store. He also has posts of him smoking pot. She now has two jobs and is still enrolled in college. I am sad because that is not the college experience that I was hoping for her. At this point it’s hard to pretend like I don’t care because I do, and I miss her beyond words. I am making excuses to her brothers and sisters and grandparents when they want to know why she doesn’t want to be a part of our family anymore.
—Ghosted by Our Grown Daughter
The comments are interesting. Since this is a general advice column and not an estranged parents forum a number, perhaps a majority, of the posters find the LW’s story to be incomplete and a bit fishy. Just thought I’d share. I didn’t include a link, but it shouldn’t be too hard to find if anyone wants to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzI5vLBrX8A
This video explains it beautifully regarding what you said about the short wire trip.