Why don’t estranged children say…
A new member of an estranged parents’ forum writes:
Why can’t an adult child who is having issues with a parent(s) communicate to the parent something like this
“I really need to take some time away from you. I don’t want you to contact me, and I ask you to please respect this decision. I know this will be difficult for you, (my mother and/or father) but I ask you to honor my decision to refrain from interfering by asking questions, “spying” on me or by offering unsolicited advice. When the time is right, I will contact you. I cannot say how long this will be but I would appreciate it if you would step away from our relationship (including my family) so that I can move forward with the life I want, which does not include you at this time. Any contact from you will not be helpful and will be viewed by me as disrespecting my right to make these choices.”
Estranged parents….why would that be so difficult to communicate to us? The estranged child, doesn’t have to give an explanation, time-line, etc. But why must they insist on shooting fiery arrows of lies, hateful speech, separation from grandchildren, etc. and then go hide behind a bush … how immature and irresponsible, unkind, disrespectful is that.
Oh, hey! I can answer that question!
It’s because when adult children who are having problems with their parents say something like that, their parents interpret it as shooting fiery arrows of lies, hateful speech, separation from grandchildren, and hiding behind a bush.
For everyone who’s steeling themselves to get through Thanksgiving instead of looking forward to it, remember: The willfully blind are blind because they want to be. You can’t make them want to see, any more than they can make you want to eat Jell-o salad. Their idea of you is no more accurate than their idea that shredded carrots floating in lime Jell-o is an acceptable side dish. Don’t waste your time on them. Don’t waste your energy on them. Don’t beat yourself up thinking there’s a way to make them see.
But do flick Jell-o salad at them.
That stuff is disgusting.
Add a Comment
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
So nice to see this stuff being called out, and so concisely and thoroughly! I was beginning to fear this blog had died.
LOL, I saw this one & had a bit of a laugh. “Really, it’s not the years and years of poor relationship that is the issue here – it’s the way you broke it off that is the real problem.”
Ahahahaha. >_>
I was actually just pondering a similar question — ’tis the season and all.
First, about when I was going “oh, the holidays were coming up”, I decided I wanted to set down a plan for what I’d do if my parents came to me asking how I felt or what my problem was.
(Ha.)
The first item on the list ended up being “The times I’ve told you before that I have a problem with something you do to me, it seems like the good outcome ends up being you stop doing it at that time, laugh off or rationalize my objection, and then do the thing again some time later (possibly with a sulky preamble about ‘I knoooow you don’t like this’). The bad outcome is something more like ‘it becomes a running joke at my expense for years after that I said this thing’. There isn’t really any point in trying again, or raising any new items, unless you show some signs of being able to do something other than this.”
Then the contact I figured was going to happen actually did happen — right before Thanksgiving, they explained how woeful they were and asked me to come to Thanksgiving (this is a proposition involving air travel), and I was kind of tempted to send a reply suggesting that a more successful attempt might include explicit acknowledgment that I exist as an independent entity who has needs and maybe also existing plans to eat turkey rather than feelings for Thanksgiving.
The thing is though, a key bit of that existing pattern of behavior cited above is that my parents accepting that I have an view that doesn’t align with theirs and leaving it be is basically not a thing that happens. So from my view, what’s likely to happen if I respond is the high-intensity end of the above pattern — arguing and picking at whatever data I expose, probably in a way that implies I’m crazy. And right now if I had to deal with that, I’d likely cut off contact more permanently, which otherwise is not something I’m quite willing to do.
And so looping back to the original subject — I can well imagine my folks saying something like this, at least if they got to the point of being willing to directly acknowledge that we’re not in contact. I think they’re unaware of why I might think it tiresome or unproductive or emotionally searing to do so, because to them the events that weren’t too trivial to remember “oh yeah, the kid was upset about some kind of thing; well, kids do that” go more or less directly to the unspeakable chasm of awful “they were out of their mind and saying terrible things that made no sense, but luckily everything is back to normal now and we don’t have to think about it”.
This year I had Thanksgiving dinner early with friends and then went home to sit on my comfy chair and do remote chat support for my queer friends who picked the other option. It was pretty great, and obviously far superior to trying to sing the Happy Daughter part as a tenor. But that’s what my folks would be happy with, and that’s what they’d be happy with my looking happy with soooo… they’re pretty much not going to figure out anything otherwise on their own.
Thanks for volunteering for remote chat support. Been there, done that, for both the giving and receiving of such support.
Imagined response to suggested message:
“Spying on you? SPYING on you! How could you even suggest I’d do such a thing! When have I ever spied on anyone? I’ve respected all the privacy you’ve been entitled to as a dependent child, which is at my total discretion as your loving parent! How dare you! Now you’re going to sit in that chair and explain to me why I can’t have exactly the relationship I want with you on the terms I want it until I understand it, and until then, you don’t get to walk away!”
Of course, being able to understand that an abused child knows full well they could never, ever even hint that their parent might do something like “spying” without setting off world war 3 (and so either making a much milder communication or just not saying anything) would require a depth of empathy which, if they possessed in the first place, would probably mean they’d never have ended up estranged at all.
“When the time is right, I will contact you. I cannot say how long this will be but I would appreciate it if you would step away from our relationship (including my family) so that I can move forward with the life I want, which does not include you at this time.”
“But why must they insist on … separation from grandchildren …”
The post is self-contradicting. It gives lip service to the adult child’s right to not have contact and to include their family in that no-contact, but then just a paragraph later the poster says that the adult child is wrong to include their children in the no-contact.
That’s the blatant part. Less blatantly, I can’t really imagine a situation where a grandparent could continue to have contact with minor grandchildren without some involvement with the grantchildren’s parent (the adult child). To demand access to the grandchildren is, in practice, demanding continued contact with the estranged adult child.
I love the scare quotes around “spying” that imply it’s totally something the estranged person would do if they weren’t asked not to do it. It’s such a weird comment because it acknowledges the bad behavior but still requires the estranged child to politely request that it be stopped. Maybe I’m the crazy one, but I kind of expect adults to control behavior they acknowledge is bad on their own.
“I ask you to please respect this decision.” Hahahahaa. Yeah, just like they’ve respected any other autonomous decision the adult offspring have made. Apparently this template is the EP Approved “Hurt Locker” for making a request to please be excused from the family’s dynamics of Bat Shit Crazy cannibalism. The fact is, adults do not require any one’s permission to do anything nor are they ever required to explain their choices.
This is another variation on the same old essential wail of all EPs, “I don’t know whhyyyyy” the adult offspring walked away. Indeed they do know, they just don’t agree with that decision-at all. Ever. Once again, the AC is wrong because of the wording of their message. Once again, EPs reserve for themselves the right to reframe the adult offspring’s experiences according to their definitions and attempt to force that narrative on the ACs as a “communication” issue.
Abuse and neglect are not a “communication” issue. They are the pattern of behavior demonstrated by those who abuse and neglect. The natural consequence (if the offspring survive) is the recipients of their maltreatment leave.
“Spying” is another word for Stalking and EPs reserve the right to do so based on some alleged DNA exemption when the reality is, it’s criminal behavior. But they protest they’re not criminals any more than they’re abusers! A judge doesn’t see it that way and a RO is the embodiment of “Stop engaging in criminal behavior towards your adult offspring or sit your entitled ass in jail and pay a fine.”
Natural consequences are like gravity-and gravity always wins.
Oh I didn’t realize I just needed to ask for respect in my interactions with my mother and it would automatically be granted! Silly me!
No estranged child ever spent years trying to negotiate a more reasonable relationship with their abusive parent, no, they all just “blow up” for mysterious reasons one day and then vanish without ever giving clear reasons why.
It is bizarre to me how narcissists tend to use the same script. I know this is exactly what my mother says about me from talking with other family members.
In reality, at my breaking point, I spent months emailing back and forth, trying to get her to understand my point of view, and only completely broke off contact when she first tried to come to my work, so we could talk about our relationship issues there, after I refused to meet with her in person, then told every member of my family that I was “acting like a crazy person” and “just started being mean and yelling at her for no reason” and then emailed my husband to say that she wasn’t sure what I was telling him, and that she was sorry she didn’t tell him before he married me, but that I have been a pathological liar since childhood, and he may want to reconsider things, now that he has all of the information.
And she continues to tell everyone that she has no idea why I stopped talking to her.
My mom came to my house while I was out of town and did the same thing with my husband. She apologized to him for me “being the way I am.” The thing that set her off was that my baby had just weaned and I went out of town for a weekend with another family member, thereby being “recklessly irresponsible” for leaving my child in the care of her father/my husband… the man she was complaining about my behavior to.
Wow.
One thing I realized after I got married, is that for all of their talk of family being the most important thing ever, a narcissist’s first target will always be your own family. Before things blew up, my mother was always hinting that my husband was “controlling” and trying to get dirt on our relationship.
Oh yes. Same here. I’ve remarried and went NC a few years ago. The flurry of communication attempts from her centered around the idea that my husband was controlling and making me do it. My theory is that they can’t think we’re stupid and also believe we are capable of agency at the same time, so it must be that someone else is controlling us. You see that all the time on the forums — it’s the spouse that’s obviously causing all the trouble.
Yeah, she kicked her complaints about my husband being controlling into high gear after the time that she stopped by our house unexpectedly and uninvited and hung out until dinner four (4!) nights in a row (and would complain about our food and never offer to help out with cleaning afterwards) and my husband appeared grumpy when she showed up on the fourth evening. She called ahead the fifth night and I told her that we needed a break from having company over. She decided that my husband unilaterally made the decision for us, and nothing I said would change her mind.
Of course, your spouse and child(ren) aren’t your “real” family anyway. Not like dear old mom.
Oh but they just want “Reconciliation!” they bawl while concurrently talking smack to everyone and anyone about their adult offspring aka “shooting firey arrows of lies,” and “hateful speech” behind the scenes and engaging in BSC behavior like Stalking etc. Frankly, if my adult children were as odious as my biological Mugger described me, I would be entirely relieved to have that person out of my life. I received far more (unwanted) attention post NC than I ever did before-and every bit of it ensured I would never reconsider my decision.
They’re like failed suicide bombers: Everytime they detonante another slander bomb, the only one they “expose” is themselves and their flagrant pathology.
When there’s a genuine difference in perception between parent and adult child, is there even a way to mediate that to both people’s satisfaction? I am struggling hard over here because just THINKING about my mother, let alone being around her, gives me a full-blown anxiety attack. Yet my mother presents as a nice, kind, caring, if slightly wacky, old lady who loves me and would never hurt me, and who very much wants me in her life. How do I know I’m not the one in the wrong?
How a person “presents” isn’t the same as our lengthy experience with that person: State vs. Trait. It seems you’re giving far more weight to the former than the latter. When there’s a discrepancy or a chasm between the words and the behavior, I’d be a fool to not believe the behavior.
Pay attention to your physiological responses: We can gaslight our minds far more easily then our bodies-after all, we’ve been schooled in the use of gaslighting by the pros. One of the most common unexamined beliefs I’ve encountered among Adult Children is formed in early childhood: The need to see the parent as “good” (for many reasons.) This need colors our perceptions into adult life and is demonstrated through statements such as, “Deep down she/he loves me,” “They really didn’t mean it” and other rationalizing/minimizing/assumptive statements.
Mediation assumes a good faith effort by both parties to seek an equitable solution, ie, both want the same outcome, but getting there is the challenge. An EP will SAY they want “Reconciliation” while concurrently for example engaging in a Campaign Of Denigration. An EP may give lip service to Common Ground and Desired Outcome in an effort to gain access to you, the grandkids etc. It’s invariably a Trojan Horse: As soon as they breech the protective barriers their offspring have in place for their own safety and that of their family, out comes the same old Mugger who stole your childhood, adolescence, early adulthood, adulthood etc. People who abuse/neglect children don’t decide to stop just because you reach a certain age: They become adult abusers. That is *who they are,* unvarnished and Free Range, typically out of public view.
If a parent wants a relationship with a child, they have DECADES in which to demonstrate that desire TO the child, not simply whine about it after the Adult Offspring is gone. Realistically, their stated “desire” for a relationship with the AC is a secret safe with them-all the way to their grave.
Please mute the sound and pay attention to the behavior, their’s and yours. The thought alone of this “nice, caring “ person doesn’t set off anxiety and panic attacks in their adult offspring for no reason. Your response is an autonomic nervous system response to a known Threat.
Believe it.
And take your prancin’ dancin’ glitter shittin’ confetti spittin’ Unicorn out back and dispatch it. Better the Unicorn than you.
Otherwise, let the Reindeer Games commence, ‘tis the season to believe in folly: “Don’t let sentimentality make you stupid.”
Thought experiment: Suppose the problem IS me. Suppose my mother IS a nice old lady who’s just a little bit quirky, but really a loving, caring mother who deserves for me to love and care for her. And being around her makes me physically ill. But that’s all my fault–my body is reacting FOR NO REASON, or because I’m crazy and need to be medicated (I already am medicated). I’m obviously still expected to spend time with her since it’s not her fault I’m sick, but how MUCH time? Am I allowed recovery periods in between visits? If the only way to make her happy is to spend ALL my time with her and that makes me so sick I end up in the hospital, what then? How much of their bodies are loyal, loving adult children expected to sacrifice for their elderly parents?
PFT, even if you were reacting in a particular way because you were ill, a non-abusive parent or one who was concerned about your welfare would accept that you needed to stay away in order to get better. They would put your health before their desire to spend time with you, and wouldn’t want to distress you.
‘Still expected to spend time with with her’. Who expects you to spend time with her? You, your mother, a family member or friend? You seem to be putting yourself on the bottom rung of the ladder. Why is your mother’s desire to spend time with you so much more important than your own health? You have the right to take proper care of both your physical and mental health. If you don’t, you’ll be ill, drained and all used up, and won’t be in a position to be there for anyone. What happens then? How will you take care of yourself or who will take care of you? I’m assuming your mother will just move on to the next body that she can drain and use up.
‘How much of their bodies are loyal, loving adult children expected to sacrifice for their elderly parents?’ When it comes to abusive parents, including my own, everything. No matter how much you give them, they want more and more and more. In the end, you’re nothing but an empty husk, and they still complain about how selfish you are and that you do nothing for them. I think a lot of them won’t be happy until their kids are dead.
Yes, 100%
Nothing can ever be enough to repay an abusive parent for the gift they gave you by giving you life, and not physically murdering you before you reached adulthood.
You will always be in their debt, and there is no way they will ever feel you have re-paid their kindness.
My mother herself is the one who wants me to spend a lot of time with her. I’m sure that if she found out she makes me sick, she would cry, “But I don’t WANT to make you sick! I want you to be HEALTHY!”
PFT,
Would she cry because she’s making you sick, or because you need to spend less time with her?
You describe her as a nice, but slightly wacky lady. What is the “slightly wacky” behavior that sets you on edge?
Can you name a concrete behavior that gets your shoulders up around your ears? Can you pinpoint the time in your life when the feelings of anxiety began? Do you feel like if you could name a specific behavior, it would be easy for you to tell your mother that you needed her to stop? Do you believe that she would respect your request? Or would it start her on a crying self-pity cycle, and the only way to stop it would be for you to comfort her, and completely drop your own needs?
You blame yourself because you’re sick and need to be medicated, but becoming ill can be a reaction to a bad environment.
If you don’t have words to describe the specific reasons, maybe try reading up at Captain Awkward about family issues, it’s an online advice column, both the captain and her commenters are pretty good at dissecting a particular behavior to get to the intentions behind it. Or the Out of the Fog forums about dealing with narcissistic parents. Reading there gave me a lot of clarity about when I could expect my mother to ever wake up and thank me for everything I had done for her and start treating me like a fellow independent adult (never)
You don’t have to answer any of this here, but maybe try answering the questions for yourself?
I could say “I don’t want to hijack Issendai’s comments section,” but I fear I already have, so I will say “I am sorry for hijacking Issendai’s comments section,” and answer these questions on my own blog. They are good and helpful questions. Thank you for posting them.
PFT, just reading the post on your own blog made me feel anxious, so it’s hardly surprising that you’re experiencing so much anxiety yourself. Your mother’s behaviour isn’t just unhealthy, but disturbing. She sounds like she’s ‘feeding’ on you.
“No matter how much you give them, they want more and more and more. In the end, you’re nothing but an empty husk, and they still complain about how selfish you are and that you do nothing for them.”
Yeah. I can’t help being curious if anyone believes her, but I’m mostly too exhausted–and empty–to care.
So true, it’s an eternal debt, and it’s impossible to get them to understand that they don’t deserve a medal for not killing you through abuse or neglect.
This is utterly hilarious to me because I gave messages very, very similar to this to my own estranged parents. I did the whole “I know this will be hard for you” and “please respect my choices” and “this is what I need right now” and “responding in X, Y, and Z ways will be unhelpful” and “refrain from offering unsolicited advice please” etc etc.
And you know what? The estranged parents are still not satisfied. Suddenly it becomes “but why are you just running away instead of working on your problems? How immature!” and “your reasons for doing this aren’t good enough!” and “by setting these boundaries of respect YOU are disrespecting ME”. And of course, when I cut contact and don’t respond anyway, they find circuitous routes to try to get messages through to me anyway so they can whine at me more about how I’m totally wrong about them and need to just start falling in line again.
I’d bet good money that, if this poster’s child had sent her this exact message, she’d be on the EP forum complaining about how immature and disrespectful it was that she didn’t give good enough reasons or she didn’t give a timeline of when to expect contact again. These people will never be satisfied unless they get total obedience. They just try to cover that up by pretending that they’d totally respect your wishes if you’d just use the exact right words or say it at just the right time or with just the right body language.
Decades ago I stumbled across Franz Kafka’s letter to his abusive father who was a Cluster B (NPD-etc.) Personality Disorder. I believe by the time Franz wrote this he was in his 30’s, clearly not a kid. This letter-actually it’s a 47 page tome-is the quintessential Adult Child trying like hell to open a dialogue with his abusive father without pissing off the father further and while assuming a ridiculous burden for having been abused. (Someone needed to remind Franz he was the CHILD.) Apparently his father in typical CB Parenting Style didn’t stop engaging in abuse when Franz became an adult: Daddy Kafka destroyed Franz’s engagement to a woman he clearly loved etc. Considering the obsequiousness apparent, Franz couldn’t have laid any flatter if he was road killed by an 18 wheeler or a dozen.
So, did this accomplished writer succeed in persuading Daddy Kafka to at least acknowledge his son just might have a viable point or two? Did Daddy respond in any way to indicate he understood, was even slightly moved by his son’s appeals for understanding (while concurrently minimizing, rationalizing etc. his father’s proclivities/abusive behavior) in an effort to establish some Common Ground between them?
Abandon all hope Adult Children who wander into the “If I can just explain this the “right way,” they’ll get it.” And the EPs will respond in horror at their abusive/neglectful behavior a la “OMG! I have been absolutely horrible to you! I know I have failed you so fundamentally and repeatedly and the examples you gave were indeed true. I am so sorry for failing to protect you from my string of “boyfriends,” my batshit crazy disproportionate responses to your typical kid behavior etc.”
*Said no EP ever.*
There are no “magic words.” I’m sorry. If an accomplished wordsmith such as Kafka is unable to penetrate the invincibility/authoritarian bubble in which an abusive/neglectful parent resides, what is the likelihood a lengthy “explanation” on the AC’s part, the deep thought and consideration with which ACs undertake this endeavor is going to be successfull? That’s the bad news.
The good news is you can now stop endeavoring to fill the massive sinkhole of the willfully obtuse abuser teaspoon by teaspoon. A short, no contact note will suffice-and add an “Open and Read” attachment in case it goes legal. You need to establish a paper trail.
For an excellent discussion and review of this letter see
“Franz Kafka’s Letter to His Father” at brainpickings.org
Yes. The end game of an abusive parent is not to get a greater understanding of their adult child. It is only to keep you engaged in their cycle permanently.
Any form of contact, even if it’s only you airing your grievances is fuel for them, regardless of what you say. They will never allow themselves to comprehend, and they will twist your words to sympathetic parties and feed on other people’s attention while continuing to vilify you.
The only way to “win” is not to play.
I’ve been on a site for estranged parents for years and find this forum an inoculation of truth from another mountain. Yes, I get it. The descriptions of those parents described here are familiar to me, frustratingly so. I joined that forum about ten years ago due to what I labeled a “difficult daughter-in-law” but my time on the site clearly revealed my DIL was not exactly a jewel, but someone with some wonderful qualities. I learned to be thankful for her.
Thing was, my own mother decided to change her will and estrange me when she was 80 so at 60 I learned what it was like to be unworthy and discarded. The issue presented as money over a house we owned jointly, but it was about other things, of course. I won’t go into it all here, but from my little perch in this estrangement world, mothers of estranged adult children suffer a form of capital punishment when they are thrown away. Adult children, not as much, probably because there is so much hurt and anger involved. Many mothers feel they owe this ridiculous thing called unconditional love and aren’t comfortable with their anger, thus condemning themselves to a life sentence of grief paralysis.
I never shed a tear over what my mother did to me. I knew she was very young on the emotional development scale, knew about borderline behavior, knew about narcissism, knew all the poison she’d spewed for the last few decades of our time together was no longer constant. I was relieved when she did what she did, managed to be ok with her connection to one of my adult sons and his family, even went to her funeral a few years ago. I did not and do not grieve her.
My point is, I believe leaving one’s parent is easier than having your own children either neglect/dispose of/abandon/write you off. I suspect I am right about this.
Many of the examples on your site seem worthy of leaving their parents. Actually, all of the ones I read seemed parents deserving disconnection.
The group on the site I’m on, though, tell stories that ring somewhat true, many stories of cruelty, theft, some perhaps mental illness. Regardless, their pain is intense, overwhelming, breathtaking.
I’ve stayed on the site because I had become friends with the moderator/founder of the site and because it seemed helpful to her and to other members. Many of the mothers are so mired down in unworkable belief systems that they seem paralyzed. I often say the same thing over and over to a new shell-shocked member. Many of their adult children seem cruel. Some, I’m sure, are just fed up with behavior I’m not aware of.
I also see it as a clash between generational cohorts, a clear shift in belief and value systems between the Boomers/Greatest Generation, Gen Xrs, Millennials and the cultural shift into Postmodernism, clearly at odds with the traditional values of the older generation.
I don’t see a bridge available, or at least not a bridge in view right now.
It is interesting that a member just heard from an adult son at Christmas, just a text, but he opened with a Mom salutation and a message that he would be contacting her soon, a lovely message out of the blue after ten years of rejection.
My own sons are 49 and 45 and in the last few years I have watched them become more and more open, loving and lovely toward us. We have never been estranged from our adult sons but have certainly had rocky spots that resulted in our silence and withdrawal. We were hurt, angry and yet our job was to sort ourselves out and appreciate what there was to appreciate while being silent.
I’m sad for the years the silence reigned but criticism doesn’t work and hubby and I knew beyond a doubt that we had raised quality people, trusted their sense of something better would surface. It did.
I am posting here to give evidence that not everyone on adult parent forums are old, rigid, flailing uncontrollably and ignorant. Many on our forum are professional, many graduate degrees, highly competent people but haven’t a clue how to navigate this world of emotional devastation. It’s a nuclear hit to most of these women. And men occasionally show up but don’t stay. Men do compartmentalization better than women.
Sometimes, of course, I wonder if I even belong there because I’m not estranged from my sons, but my estrangement from my mother was very real and ten years long.
I listened to a Dennis Prayer broadcast a few days ago and he contrasted an ethic of obligation (traditional value) with an ethic of rights (postmodern value) and it seems those opposing belief systems are clearly displayed in our forums.
I’m big into Dr. Jordan Peterson and his admonition to “sort yourself out,” to understand that life is full of suffering and to aim to do our best rings true for what you are doing on this site. Kudos and appreciation to you.
I didn’t see your thoughtful comment earlier and offer some response to your observations. There’s a lot of food for thought. Thank you.
There is a world of difference between positions of the “Leave-ee” and the “Left,” between being the Rejector and the Rejected in every relationship. Now add in the unique Power Differential between an adult and a child which can not be ignored as a very significant variable in these relationships. Regardless of the child’s chronological age, EPs continue to insist their age as well as their power as the label Parent “Over” is inherently inviolable. How is that belief manifested by EP’s? Phrases such as “Deserve *Respect* as their Parent,” “Should take care of me after all I did for them,” (The Invoible Incurred Invoice) and “betrayed,” “ thrown away” and other descriptions of their responses to being the Rejected. Those “snot nosed kids” have the audacity to upend the EP’s Power “Over:” How dare they?! There are some False Equivalences in your examples: In the first, your mother was the Rejector and you were the Rejected. Further, you profess to have an intellectual understanding of the dynamics of her pathology. Did that leave you unscathed emotionally as well as economically? No. Your use of “unworthy” and “discarded” speak to your emotional responses-as an Adult. Of course it’s painful!
“…mothers of estranged adult children suffer a form of Capitol Punishment when they are thrown away. Adult children not so much probably because there is so much hurt and anger involved.” In other words, adult children who estrange are committing homicide, but parents who spend decades abusing their kids aren’t committing a crime in progress for all those decades? The Adult Child doesn’t also experience (right down to the DNA/Cellular Level) “this ridiculous feeling called unconditional love” towards their parents? There’s more than a social obligation called “owe” for a child in this situation, far more at stake here: Our very survival is contingent upon that bond with our parents. By the time a child is 3, they are very aware without the protection of their parents they would perish. The child spends years, decades with an abuser who uses their assumed *infinite* position of “Power Over” to abuse that person into their adult life. Certainly there’s pain all around and I don’t see anyone negating that pain in any way. But to believe it’s somehow “less than” for an AC than an EP is now comparing apples and oranges. We can’t quantify pain, right? IMO, it’s no doubt a “nuclear detonation” for an EP because they ARE so completely void of knowledge and understanding of that now Adult Child, so it certainly will rock their world: Estrangement levels the EPs entire Paradigm. However, the pain is simply *different* in terms of manifestation. While the EP experiences a “nuclear detonation,” the EC has experienced Aleppo-Over-Decades: The indescriminent bombing that levels the child continues into Adulthood-and the essential problem is the EP continues to bomb into absolute rubble-and then bomb the rubble. By the time an AC estranges, the relationship is in absolute ruin and there are NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES LEFT for the AC to persue. Every other option the AC has attempted over the decades to achieve some kind of parity-and mutual respect-has been woefully unsuccessful. Estrangement is the embodiment of that Reality. ACs anguish-and I do mean anguish-over this decision for years-before AND after NC. This decision is not made without profound sorrow, precipitously or arbitrarily. (Although the EPs are absolutely sure it is!) So while it is certainly Sudden and Unexpected for the EP, it has been years, decades of pain for the AC to finally walk away in acknowledgement their efforts have availed them nothing. One needs to work long, hard and consistently to destroy the inherent hardwiring in the very DNA with which babies come into this world primed entirely to bond with their parents. (That’s just science and IMO, the Flat Earthers can walk to the edge and jump.) There’s plenty of pain to go around, no one disputes that reality. That it was “easier” for your to accept the Rejection by your own mother (intellectual understanding) than to withdraw from your own ACs when they engaged in certain behaviors *still places you* in the Leave-ee rather than the Left position. There was no Estrangement from your ACs, but an initiated by you strategic withdrawal. Yet previously you spoke of your own pain when your mother Rejected you. Again, it IS painful, no one disputes that but “easier?” No. Different-and just as devastating but in a horribly protracted manner for an AC. Would you rather endure decades worth of intermittent bombardment that becomes ultimately Dresden-or Hiroshima? Dead is Dead: The only difference is how we get there. No one has cornered the market on Pain in these families. The “hurt and anger” you attribute to the AC and motivating the decision to NC is far more readily apparent in EPs, not the AC’s-look no further than the disproportionate responses the EP’s demonstrate when their AC’s DO politely request the parent stop engaging in odious behaviors towards the ACs-and it is this refusal by the EPs that ultimately leads to NC/Estrangement. After decades of this refusal, Estrangement is not on the AC for lack of trying but on the EP for their consistent failure to listen and HEAR.
No doubt the EP site benefits very much from your empathy and willingness to put yourself out there to help provide a place for them to “land” and hopefully get their bearings. Your observation re: “mired down in unworkable belief systems” is IMO so true. It seems their Belief System has evolved from a Rigid Authoritarian Identity that has never previously been challenged OR examined. OTOH, ACs are challenged by their own huge moral, ethical and social considerations and long, arduous reflection of their own Belief System prior to NC. I absolutely believe there was much much more than a house involved with your mother, more than pathology as well that informed your decision and response to her. There ARE Principles involved for ACs-their very Identity is also caught up in this decision *as is their conscience,* the very Foundation of who we are and is no small matter for an AC.
This is plenty long, so I’m gonna stop and listen to some responses from everyone else. Thanks.
I’m sorry, maggiepie, that I also missed your comments. I do not doubt that my mother is in a lot of pain over the estrangement. I just don’t know what to do about that. It is probably the largest source of conflict over no contact for me. Unfortunately my mother’s conduct is dangerous because she’s impulsive and driven by her emotions, which has resulted in her doing things that had the potential for great harm. I don’t really blame her. I don’t think she’s capable of fully understanding or controlling her conduct. But I also can’t let my family be the victim of that conduct. I wish she didn’t hurt. I genuinely do, no matter what she’s done.
In any case, I appreciate hearing your perspective. My concern about the parents’ forums is that they seem to encourage some of the behavior that underlies the conflict. Someone with a possibly surmountable problem is encouraged in entirely the wrong way by more vocal members, leading to an exacerbation of the issues that led to the separation. That makes me the most sad.
Despite all that has happened, I would consider allowing my mother back into our lives if she were to see a mental health professional. That won’t happen though. She’s made that clear. The whole family knows she’s got issues, but won’t encourage her to get the help she needs. That also makes me sad, and feels like a strange kind of love.
Taken from an estranged parent thread:
‘But I do think that in order to cut off one’s family, the person doing the cutting off must be either suffering an untreated mental health condition OR be suffering from jealousy, resentment, and spitefulness (unless the person was abused, but that’s a whole different thread!).’
On this thread, some of the EC have clearly explained why they’ve cut off contact, but the EPs won’t accept the reason. One EP talks about how she doesn’t know what she’s done to deserve no contact, but admits that she was sent a letter that at the very least explains that she was cut off because of her aggressiveness. She denies this, being of the opinion that she wasn’t aggressive, but had a ‘fiery temper’ and was ‘volatile’. By saying that she has a fiery temper and is volatile, she’s admitting to the fact that there’s a problem with her behaviour, while at the same time making it quite clear that she’s decided she’s isn’t the problem.
Telling these EPs what they’ve done really is a complete waste of time. They simply won’t accept it, even when they are admitting to the abusive behaviour (maybe in a roundabout way), they still insist they’re not the problem.
I’ve mentioned before on this site that both my parents were abusive. My father planned to shoot and murder my family when I was a child, and my abusive mother even tried to kill by brother when he was a baby. There were certain things that I chose not to discuss with my parents because I deemed it to be too dangerous, but there were other things that I explained. Even then, they insisted that they didn’t know what they’d done, being of the opinion that I’d only cut off contact because I was selfish, brainwashed, or insane. This idea that you can communicate with these parents is a complete and utter joke, and in my situation, should you really have to explain to your parents that trying/planning to murder your children is wrong? Mind-blowingly, when dealing with estranged abusive parents this seems to be the case. On some EP forums, they even talk about how EPs must have forgotten such things through no fault of their own, and how it’s up to their child/ adult child to explain these things to them.
I ended up walking away from my entire past and am of the opinion that I’m no longer related to my family. I’ve learnt many things as a result of this experience, including the fact that you can’t communicate with those who don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions and never want to change. The best thing you can do is simply get out.
Re: “Fiery Temper/Volatile”-Even this exercise in “reframing” in a transparent attempt to place a more positive spin on horrid behavior fails horribly. This kind of mercurial behavior is unnerving for adults to deal with; for children it’s devastating. Ex: The child goes to school with a June Cleaver on steroids Mommy in the morning (engulfing behavior) and comes home to Raging Bitch Mommy that afternoon (rejecting behavior.) You never know what mommy you’re going to encounter or why or how to get that somewhat “better mommy” back. As a result the child becomes an anxiety ridden wreck, constantly frightened and confused. So much for empathy by the multialarm/would rather burn the relationship down to cinders and salt the earth “parent.”
This commenter reminded me of another who’s adult daughter attempted repeatedly to address her mother’s behavior with the mother. Mother responds “I tell her that’s the “old me, “ a ghost” and blows the daughter off while never acknowledging directly the “old her” behavior-but not refuting the adult daughter’s concerns. It’s fair to intuit the mother knows damn well her behavior “back then” was considerably lacking and is being told directly it has negatively affected her daughter, but does Casper own it or even listen? Nope. (No empathy here either.)
Casper, if you’re reading and this rings a bell with you (highly unlikely) here it is in plain, direct language: The “Old” you raised this now Adult. Your behavior THEN still impacts her TODAY. What ever you were or weren’t doing then may be a “Clear Entry” for you but your adult offspring is continuing to hurt big time now and is trying to open a dialogue with you-to no avail.
Casper’s response also has “futility” for the AC written all over it.
And both of these are templates for how you end up an Estranged Parent claiming youhave no idea “whhyyyyy.”
Personally, I am sick of our adult kid’s generation carrying the banner of victimhood like it’s some measure of pride. Poor me, boo hoo! Mommy and Daddy offended me. So did our parents many times. We put it in perspective. We stopped by, visited for a couple of hours, let them babysit our kids and were relieved we had some free babysitting. We didn’t wallow in the time our mother spanked us, or Dad told us we should be more like our sibling. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, all puffed up and judging all, Then Humpty Dumpty had his own fall, Mom and Dad stopped caring at all.
Candace, you’ve completely missed the point. Please read the article and thread again with the goal of understanding if the adult children are upset about one spanking or one comment from Dad. Spoiler alert – they’re not. Until you can truly listen and understand what is being communicated here, you can’t contribute anything of value.
And this Public Service Reminder is bought to you by the “Displaced Aggression Society of the Terminally Estranged BSC’s” spokesperson “Candace.” Thank you for that timely, impending Holiday reminder that one person’s “Terrorist” is another person’s “Freedom Fighter.”
“Candace” has announced they’ve “stopped caring” so hard, so completely, so totally, so done, no more, nada, nopeitynopenope…..they had to cyber stalk and seek out an AC site to inform whoever, they do. not. care. Get it?! And they huffed and they puffed-and now I call your bluff: I don’t believe ya. But thanks for providing the quintessential example of the phenomena of BSC Parents-and the unintended humor.
My inner old lady debil has been Free Range giggling over this BSC ‘witticisms.’ In the same genteel spirit of humorous WTFery, I shall return the favor to “Candace,” our most esteemed Exhibit A+ of a BSC tantruming 2 yr. old “Guest”/Drive By Shooter:
Abra Kadabra and Yaba Doba Doo
Your adult kids walked out the door-forever
So there it is “Candace,” a big “Fuck You.”
You’re welcome. And your foot is bleeding. No wait…it’s not there anymore….just like your adult offspring. And it’s not coming back. Ever.
Neither are they.
But I guarantee you will.
Need to make one additional point. Candace, you say that Mom & Dad will stop caring eventually, as if that is a punishment to the adult child. No – to many of us, that would be a blessed relief.
Candace, personally, I’m sick of abusive estranged parents carrying the banner of victimhood like it’s some measure of pride. Poor me, boo hoo! My child won’t let me abuse the crap out of them any more.
I’ve previously commented before. My husband is estranged from his parents, and they alternate between disowning him and blaming me. As time as passed, I tend to blamed more than he is. He has basically said exactly what the poster quoted here has said, “We can’t be around you because of the way you behave, leave us in peace” and it wasn’t good enough. We have actual letters from them where they say “We know you said to leave you alone but we don’t want to.”
Two weeks ago my In-Laws arrived at our door with a letter addressed to me, although in it they say they’ve also written to my husband but have decided not to post that letter (yet).
Again they have written that they know we don’t want to hear from them but they want to write, they want to see us, they want photo’s of our child, that they know we think they are ‘bad’ but they still love us even after everything we have said to them, and that what they want now is a meeting where “we won’t talk about the past as you have said too much” and they have ended it with a cryptic message about something bad happening to them (we know what that is, another relative has told us, it’s not how they make it sound in the letter).
I just feel exhausted by them now. We have both, separately and together, said to them exactly what this person has said she wanted to hear from her child. It wasn’t good enough. Our estrangement didn’t happen overnight, and whatever they say, it wasn’t out of the blue. We tried to speak to them in every possible way to get them to understand what they were doing to us and to their relationship with my husband. Now they are exactly like this woman, wondering why we didn’t speak to them. We did, they didn’t hear us.
Estranged parents like my In-Laws DON’T want you to say this to them. They don’t want you to say anything to them because they don’t want to listen. I made the mistake of looking at the Find My Grandparent page on Facebook and it’s filled with people who just haven’t listened to what their adult children have said, but are happy telling each other that “our time will come” and posting manipulative memes about how their grandchildren shouldn’t believe their parents love them and how their children will learn one day when their grandchildren do the same thing and cut their children off. Those are not the comments of people who will listen and respect boundaries. This is not the sort of conversation you can have with those people. And they only say they want to hear it once it’s too late to be said.
That group is worth a look at if you have the stomach for it, because it backs up this blog like you wouldn’t believe. I even recognised one member as someone who seeks out estranged adult children to tell them how awful they are on pages for support.
QOD, I looked up that Facebook page and the first thing I saw was a thing informing parents that they do not have the right to be heard but instead the responsibility to listen. Which is, of course, *exactly* the attitude that keeps someone in a relationship with you.
There’s also a ton of stuff about how not letting a child have a relationship with a grandparent is severe abuse, which seems like a combination of seriously overestimating their own importance to their grandchildren, and some major projection (“I’m suffering, therefore no one is not suffering”).
“Our estrangement didn’t happen overnight, and whatever they say, it wasn’t out of the blue. We tried to speak to them in every possible way to get them to understand what they were doing to us and to their relationship with my husband. Now they are exactly like this woman, wondering why we didn’t speak to them. We did, they didn’t hear us.”
So what WERE they doing that was so awful? And did your husband spell out to them what he wanted to change?
There seem to be so many EPs who appear genuinely confused, baffled even. They cannot all be liars can they? Is it any wonder that they are then inclined to suspect DiLs or SiLs? After all, the MiL DiL relationship has its built in psychological strains, and there is many a DiL who would not be unhappy not to see her MiL again even while maintaining a superficially good relationship.
I asked my mother to get counseling, and instead she went to my ex-husband and urged him to file for full custody and offered to be a witness. She claims she doesn’t know what she did to make me cut her off. She blames my current husband and says he is controlling me. I don’t know, which do you think is the reason? Could you look me in the eye and tell me it’s likely or even possible that she doesn’t know what she did?
And let me give you the answer because I suspect you think you know it but you don’t. She doesn’t know what she did because she has justified what she did and views any objection I have to her conduct as invalid. It can’t possibly be the reason because it wasn’t the wrong thing to do. They’re not liars — not externally anyway. They just view the world through the eyes of someone that can never be wrong and they bend their vision of reality to that belief system.
Big, sweeping generalization. I (female) get along with my MIL spendidly, to the point that she says she sees my husband more often now that we’re married. I remember their birthdays, I remind my husband to swing by his grandparents, I bring them souvenirs. My MIL in turn respects my opinions and treats me as well as she does her own children.
My own mother, however, doesn’t listen to me, makes mean comments about my looks, my lifestyle, my English (too American, lol), and then wonders what she could have possibly done wrong when I tell her to cut it out or ignore her.
So, your “theory” is just another way of blaming people trying to live their lives in peace despite being needled by awful parents.
And let me give you the answer because I suspect you think you know it but you don’t. She doesn’t know what she did because she has justified what she did and views any objection I have to her conduct as invalid. It can’t possibly be the reason because it wasn’t the wrong thing to do. They’re not liars — not externally anyway. They just view the world through the eyes of someone that can never be wrong and they bend their vision of reality to that belief system.
I just read on an EP site where an EC DID write a letter saying basically all that was ‘requested’ by the EP in your example. The parents reply? “Well I’m not open to it. Am I wrong for wanting to say f*** off?”
Your article and evidence ‘in the wild’ are an invaluable resource for survivors.