A brief rant about Joshua Coleman and a note about estranged parents as abused children
Usually I respect Joshua Coleman’s work, but this talk at AGA–Alienated Grandparents Anonymous, the mothership of batshit stalker grandparents–is a horrorshow. Only 20 minutes in, and already I want to scream.
There’s some good analysis of cultural influences, but he’s already ticked the boxes for “we gave them too much self-esteem,” “parenting standards have changed,” and “they estrange because it’s the only way they know how to individuate.” While I was typing this post, someone asked him a question about the role of in-laws, and he asked everyone to put up their hands if their estrangement was due to their sons- or daughter-in-laws. He glanced over the room and joked, “Everyone?” Then he went into a discussion of the delicacies of the parent-in-law/child-in-law relationship, and so far it’s good, but… really? He didn’t do anything to undercut the idea that it was always the child’s spouse? He did mention that often the problem–
Just a minute, now he’s saying kids have trouble with parents badmouthing their spouses because they’re immature. If they were mature, their identities would be more solid, and they’d be able to brush the criticism off. That’s true if the criticism is sporadic and mild, but he knows damn well that when things have progressed to estrangement, it wasn’t.
Back to what I was saying. Coleman mentioned in passing that often the problem with the child began before their partner came into the picture, but as of 34 minutes into his talk, he hasn’t returned to it. Kind of important in getting perspective on the estrangement, don’t you think?
I get the impression that he’s aware of the deeper issues, but he also knows the Society for Batshit Grandparents is paying his speaking fees, and he’s had long and exquisitely detailed experience with how sensitive his audience is to anything that could be construed as criticism. In a word, he’s pandering.
Ugh.
I’m leaving this up because of a point he made early on, which was going to be the focus of this post until everything went sideways. He says many, many parents tell him their own parents were awful.
But he never does anything with it. As far as I’m aware, it’s not something he talks about elsewhere, either. Neither do the other estrangement experts I know about. The members of estranged parents’ communities are keenly aware that most of them were abused as children, but they don’t go anywhere with the idea either.
If the majority of people with condition X also have condition Y, people take note. It’s basic. It’s so basic that we have to remind people that correlation isn’t causation, because otherwise our human minds weld condition X and condition Y together. We’ll do it about the stupidest things, too. When bird flu hit China, people were reluctant to go to the Boston and New York Chinatowns because bird flu… can be transmitted via race? But for some reason, no one has made the connection between people who were abused as children and people whose children desert them because of alleged abuse. It’s bewildering.
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I’m still trying to figure out what I think of Coleman. It seems like a lot of his stuff lately is run through his webinar series, and while I’m kind of horrifyingly intrigued by what the content of “Is My Child’s Therapist Part of the Problem” might be, I’m not sure that I want to fork over the necessary time and money to find out.
Grinding through this video, something I’m seeing in the early bits of it, very rough paraphrase: “It’s the parents that invest the most in their children who are most at risk” and “[the modern focus on the internal life of the child being important, putting more responsibility on the parent for managing this] produces a lot of guilt and worry in the home”. This resonates with a part of my own experience that I have a hard time putting my finger on — that there’s an aspect of being SO invested and SO anxious and FIXING everything that is NOT RIGHT that can produce what amounts to covertly-abusive controlling behavior that may be driven by a twisted desire for the child to have good things. But like with the other points you mention, Coleman doesn’t seem to be pursuing that notion at all either — the problem with the guilt and worry seems to be only that the parents experience it, not that being the object of that guilt and worry might not be a great experience for the child.
Granted with this audience it’s probably not much of a missed opportunity, but still.
Oh god, is that one of his webinars? Aieee. Once upon a time I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, but after watching the video I linked to in this post, I’m no longer willing to entertain the possibility that it’s a sensitive exploration of a common misconception among estranged parents.
That invested-anxious-hovering behavior needs a name, because… yeah. Humans need to do things for ourselves, even if we make mistakes. We need to learn to make mistakes without being afraid that the world is going to come down if we don’t do it perfectly the first time, every time. And we need to learn to be self-directed, instead of always looking over our shoulder to see whether The Person Who Knows How to Do It Right approves. None of that happens if our parents are always there, guilting and worrying and fretting and doing it for us.
When elderly people’s caregivers over-help, the “helped” people are at a much higher risk of depression. Conversely, when patients in a nursing home were given the responsibility for watering and tending a single potted plant, they perked up, became more social and better at caring for themselves. One potted plant. Studies from, oh, the 80’s?, found that kids raised by parents who helped them name their emotions, talked them through their emotions, etc.–I don’t remember the name, but it’s a specific style of parenting that became popular in the 60’s or 70’s–were calm, obedient… and depressed. All that talking-through that was supposed to lovingly help the child deal with their emotions ended up feeling invasive, like the parents owned the child’s emotions. Studies coming out now on helicopter parenting are finding that kids raised by helicopter parents feel more helpless and are more depressed. It’s a serious problem.
And it’s hard to solve because–well. My mom used to do it. She’s not a helicopter parent at all, but when I was younger she was high-anxiety, fixated on doing things the right way, afraid to experiment when faced with the unknown. When bumbling, mawkish, undiagnosed-ADD me started doing something that might turn out wrong, she’d rush in to help. As I got older and parts of my skill set surpassed hers, we had massive screaming fights over what I was allowed to do. She was too anxious to step back and let me make mistakes, because she was so afraid of making mistakes herself. She did it because she genuinely cared. But her care was stifling.
While I was young and she had the power, it was unbearable. It didn’t get better until I was old enough to set boundaries, tell her “no,” and act without her interference. She began to see that I could make mistakes without being destroyed. The only thing that lessened her anxiety was my doing the very things she didn’t want me to do.
And that’s what it’s like with so many parents who invested-anxious-hover. They do it because they care, and ceasing to do it feels to them like ceasing to love their children. It also feels like a piece of themselves is being destroyed, because their anxiety tears them apart at even the thought of loosening their hold. They don’t mean to abuse. Quite the opposite. And because they’re The Parents, and they’re doing what’s best for their children even though their children are rebelling, as children will, they ignore their children’s distress.
The road to Hell is paved with, etc.
So to bring it back to what you were actually talking about, as opposed to the rabbit hole my brain went down, yes, there’s a sort of… detachment from cause and effect? Parents sometimes talk about how estrangement was caused by family dynamics or the family culture, or how the effect of abuse pass from generation to generation, as though the dynamics/culture/effects are numinous entities floating in the air, damaging family members without being embodied in any one member. When parents do talk about individual parents being dysfunctional, it’s usually the other parent, who abused their spouse without damaging the kids at all, apart from teaching the kids not to respect the targeted parent. Or maybe the forum member recognizes that their spouse was a bad parent, but the kids have to understand that the forum member had it worse. They never bring up the possibility that they were abusive during their time as enablers. And… yeah, they’re willing to empathize with their children only as long as it casts no responsibility on the parent. So of course their own controlling behavior would cause disembodied “guilt and worry,” and their children would be allowed to share in the pain as long as it didn’t actually come from the parents. But Coleman has to be careful not to invite his audience to empathize with their children too much, because that means he’s “putting all the blame on the parents.”
“that there’s an aspect of being SO invested and SO anxious and FIXING everything that is NOT RIGHT that can produce what amounts to covertly-abusive controlling behavior that may be driven by a twisted desire for the child to have good things.”
“We need to learn to make mistakes without being afraid that the world is going to come down if we don’t do it perfectly the first time, every time. And we need to learn to be self-directed, instead of always looking over our shoulder to see whether The Person Who Knows How to Do It Right approves. None of that happens if our parents are always there, guilting and worrying and fretting and doing it for us.”
Oh, so you’ve both met my mother? 😞
‘Studies from, oh, the 80’s?, found that kids raised by parents who helped them name their emotions, talked them through their emotions, etc.–I don’t remember the name, but it’s a specific style of parenting that became popular in the 60’s or 70’s–were calm, obedient… and depressed. All that talking-through that was supposed to lovingly help the child deal with their emotions ended up feeling invasive, like the parents owned the child’s emotions.’
I know this is an old post, but I was intrigued by this. Do you have any references?
“The members of estranged parents’ communities are keenly aware that most of them were abused as children, but they don’t go anywhere with the idea either.”
I was not abused as a child. I had a most loving childhood. So . . . where do you go with that? It’s the generation of children who were raised to think only of their own happiness. It is our fault for raising them that way!
But the vast majority of the members of that generation (*) of children are not estranged from their parents, so how does that fit into the generational theory?
*Which generation are we talking about anyway? EAC forum members range from teenagers to people in their 50s or more.
I guess also I have a question here — you say that you usually respect Coleman’s work and that you get the impression that he knows better than what he’s saying and is pandering to the AGA folks. From that the thing I would ask then is a) on what basis do you respect Coleman’s work generally and b) is that basis incompatible with him actually pretty much believing what he said in the video?
Reason I ask is because, on thinking of what I’ve seen of Coleman so far — which is When Parents Hurt, parts of that video, some articles that interview him fairly lightly, and that I think I read some blog articles that might have been on his site and which I now can’t find — I’d say that I also probably do respect his work, but it’s also somewhat in the same sense that I respect the existence of the estranged parent forums.
Specifically, my impression is that he does two worthy things: He extends compassion and teaches self-compassion to estranged parents who are in pain currently and almost certainly have a painful history, and he offers people who are perhaps “on the bubble” for extended/complete estrangement vs some sort of mutually tolerable family relationship a model of thinking about the problem that has some hope of moderating their behavior sufficiently to permit a relationship. The latter being perhaps like — it might be nice if the parent stops running down their son’s husband at every family dinner because they have realized that denigrating another adult’s spouse is unacceptable and their child is an adult, but if they stop because they’re thinking “I have to be the parent through my child’s extended adolescence and be mindful that teenagers are oversensitive even when they are 40” that also will serve.
So — that, yes, I think I respect. But I also don’t think that what materials I’ve seen from him so far rule out actually believing that most cases of estrangement stem from immature extended adolescent behavior on the part of the adult child and that a truly mature person would be able to consider their family duty and hence tolerate their parent extensively running down their spouse. Have I missed something there?
Bwahahahaha! This is perfect.
Your comment deserves a longer reply, but I’m out of time at the moment. The short answer is: You nailed his current appeal. But as of a few years ago, he was having conversations like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1RG7DBKJJ7VQI/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0061148431#R1RG7DBKJJ7VQI
This 2011 seminar transcription is also excellent: http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1101511788775-33/TRANSCRIPTION-+PDF+5+Most+Common+Mistakes+of+Estranged+Parents.pdf
…and that’s the work I respect. He’s never going to confront estranged parents the way adult children hope he will, because he knows that approach doesn’t work, but he used to write as though he was aware of the underlying reasons for estrangement.
So parents are hurt and offended because they are not receiving the respect they deserve.
But the adult child is immature and has a weak sense of identity when the aging parent criticizes the adult child and/or spouse.
So respect is a one-way street?
And when the spouse of the adult child wants a say in how he/she spends the holidays, then that behavior is controlling and selfish.
But when the aging parent imposes their critical perspective on how the adult child & spouse spends the holidays, then it is because the spouse of the adult child is a troublemaker and alienator as well as controlling?
Wait, who is the immature one with the self-esteem issues again?
aw, Silver, you sound so bitter and so spoiled and so delicate. time to adult!
[A note from Issendai: I allowed this comment through so readers can get the measure of this commenter’s character.]
The definition of “Respect” by an EP is apparently:
-I deserve it because I donated ovum/sperm
-Respect is automatically conferred on me by virtue of my title: Respect is not earned
-“You OWE me respect,” regardless of the pattern of EP behavior that consistently demonstrates abuse, neglect, moral/ethical bankruptcy
-If you don’t respect me, it’s because my ex(s) didn’t either and you “caught it” from him/her/them
-Respect is not “Authoritarian;” I’m simply always right
-I demand “respect” the same way any tyrant demands it: At the blunt end of threats and tantrums
-“Respect” is EP speak for “Deify”
-“If the AC does not respect me, their children won’t respect them either!” (Variation of the “Karma’s gonna git cha” EP Fear Factor/Principle)
All spouses/partners are automatically suspect because they’re competition for the AC’s time, attention and love. The AC can’t serve two masters and when you’re the undisputed Master, they’re both subordinate to the EP “as long as we all shall live.” Transgressions result in, “Dear God, Please kill my DIL/SIL” not uttered as a harmless bit of humor. A “weak sense of Identity” EP translation: Demonstrating any autonomy. “Immaturity” increases as the child Differentiates; when you’re a child you’re treated as an adult and when you’re an adult you’re treated as a child.
I honestly think Coleman is a quack. He is quick to blame parents and talk parents into doing anything to get the kids back–accept mental illness diagnoses from their kids, accept lies about supposed abuse and tell you to apologize profusely, no matter what in order to get those kids back in your life! I am sorry. I want my kids, but I refuse to succumb to some arbitrary diagnosis and apologize for things I never did in order to assuage my estranged children! Why should I be abused and bullied in order to make peace with my child? It makes no sense.
That’s not even remotely what Coleman says, but okay.
OK, so don’t. It’s your choice to accept or reject what’s being told to you. I hope you leave your kids alone though, because it’s also their choice not to be around you.
I totally agree. Looking for a counsellor like Joshua Coleman who agrees with you. Do u have any names Thanks
Interesting, I am an estranged parent/grandparent. There was a lot in this video that I could relate to, but there was also stuff he said that seemed a bit ‘off’. Many of us EP really don’t understand why we’re estranged, particularly when we really have worked hard to give our kids a great childhood that was so much better than our own. Personally, I think that children that estrange themselves without even trying to address why they feel the need to do so, are very unforgiving and often times petty. I have to wonder how many that have commented here are an estranged parent, or are they the child that did the estranging, Same for the author.
Kellie — It’s very simple. You said it yourself… Many estranged parents don’t UNDERSTAND why. Your lack of ability to UNDERSTAND is part of why you are estranged.
“I think that children that estrange themselves without even trying to address why they feel the need to do so, are very unforgiving and often times petty.” — Since YOU don’t UNDERSTAND why you are estranged, is it possible that YOU didn’t “understand” when your child tried to bring up issues with you prior to walking away? I have yet to meet an adult who walked away from their ‘family’ that didn’t first try to address the issues in some way.
Ahhh yes… Onto the projection! EAC are “petty” according to you. Well, good thing what you think (or what our own parent(s) think) is not fact or reality in any way. That’s another part of why you are estranged. Your beliefs, feelings and opinions don’t equal fact but you run on it as if it does. You think your child is “unforgiving” and “petty” so you treated them THAT WAY.
You are estranged because you don’t treat your child as the adult they are now. You have double standards of how people can talk to/treat you but if your AC demands the same consideration that you do, look out! Get over your false superiority/super-adultness and humble yourself to being EQUAL to your adult off-spring. If you can’t pull that off then get used to being alone.
If you want to be forgiven by your “unforgiving” child, ASK FOR FOREGIVENESS. Own your behavior and become a better person. That’s usually what happens to EAC once they get away from their toxic family. If we can do it in spite of our toxic parent(s) YOU, as an uber-adult who is superior enough to judge others, should be able to do the same.
No, you do not find it “interesting:” You find it infuriating. Stop lying and pretending you want anything but Retribution-and posted here to press home that reality. By your own self report you just don’t “understand” as you “….really worked hard to give our kids a great childhood (wait for it>) *that was so much better than our own…” *
That was clearly an unintended disclosure of what’s up with you never mind owning it and actually DOING something about the perennial hot mess called YOU.
The reality is, YOU GAVE YOUR KIDS THE CHILDHOOD *YOU WANTED,* NOT THE ONE *THEY NEEDED.* They had no say whatsoever in your choices. And you refused to listen, to note and respond to any behavioral cues they exhibited etc. in any event because you’re entirely dedicated to and invested in fulfilling what YOU WANTED, not what they NEEDED: This is about YOU and YOUR OWN UNADDRESSED BROKENNESS.
The rest of your comment is a red herring not worth a response.
It’s apparent *EPs need their offspring in order to have an Identity.* It also provides a pathetic excuse for not addressing their own brokenness. This creates a dynamic of Hostile Dependence by the EP on the AC’s from the AC’s childhood through their adulthood. A child does not have the ability to “fix” an adult’s hot mess and are left chronically feeling inadequate. So what if it ’s a perversion and clearly deleterious to Human Growth and Development? This transparently pathetic agenda ensures EP’s won’t have to engage in a whit of self-reflection or *work through their own unresolved junk with it’s genesis in their own Way Back History.*
Keep telling yourself you “gave my kids a better childhood” when “better” translates into “you owe me/don’t ever grow up because I don’t have a clue who I am-and you exist as an appendage only to provide me a barren Identity and endless succor in what ever manner I demand. “ What a truly classic exposure of the EP’s hostile dependence on their offspring and their attempt to work out their own stuff through Recapitulation of the Primary Trauma-their own. Your kids/grands do NOT exist to fulfill anyone else’s expectations nor are they ever responsible for binding up anyone else’s brokenness-particularly YOUR’S, indelibly forged by your twisted endeavor; to work out your own unaddressed stuff through them.
This is some next level selfish, self-absorbed bull shit pattern of behavior typical of EPs.
You should ask the author about his own estrangement! He ruined my life with ridiculous assessment of my situation as estranged parent. Wanted to be a hero to my child to pad his pain and ego I presume! Careful here!
What are you on about? Are you trying to say your child estranged because of this page or pages like it? That’s not how that goes but sure… Blame anything instead of looking at your own behavior.
Who is your child? I don’t know anyone named Toenjes.
‘particularly when we really have worked hard to give our kids a great childhood that was so much better than our own’
And because of that, what exactly? Who are you say it was better? The adult child or you?
“Many of us EP really don’t understand why we’re estranged, particularly when we really have worked hard to give our kids a great childhood that was so much better than our own. ”
Yes. This. This is my daddy who says: “You have no cause to complain. You have a roof above your head. You never go hungry. You can go to school peacefully.” He had very little of that.
Nevertheless, we were yelled at. He hit us. We were afraid of him.
Luckily, he understood that this is not great too, and the estrangement kind of softened/ended.